VIA Rail

[roger1818]

I dont mean "BUILD" an ROW, but build a service that people can use and they will use it. Taking into consideration the price of gas today and traffic.

How do you build a service without access to a ROW?

 

[Bordercollie]

How do you build a service without access to a ROW?

It's not like the Dundas sub is packed to the brim with CN freight.

 

[Bordercollie]

Does the surface transportation board have the power to force CN to allow Amtrak to have better priority on their network?

CN to STB: New Amtrak OA Sought—on Our Terms - Railway Age

We recently reported on Amtrak’s request to the Surface Transportation Board (STB) to set terms and conditions for a new operating agreement (OA) between Amtrak and CN, as one of the host railroads whose lines Amtrak uses for its trains.

www.railwayage.com

 

[rbt]

Does the surface transportation board have the power to force CN to allow Amtrak to have better priority on their network?

I don't think so. IIRC, railways need to provide access but not necessarily priority access*. Many Amtrak routes have less than 40% on-time performance, caused more by dispatch priority than actual congestion: following a freight train 100's of miles on otherwise lightly used track.

* Not technically true, but Amtrak cannot do anything about it. The Department of Justice would need to take action on Amtrak's behalf, and they never have. So for all practical purposes, Amtrak is not guaranteed priority.

This bill, however, would have given Amtrak some ability to force railways to cooperate with them on performance metrics by giving Amtrak the ability to sue them directly without DOJ involvement.

Text - S.1500 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Rail Passenger Fairness Act

Text for S.1500 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Rail Passenger Fairness Act

www.congress.gov

 

[Bordercollie]

I don't think so. IIRC, railways need to provide access but not necessarily priority access*. Many Amtrak routes have less than 40% on-time performance, caused more by dispatch priority than actual congestion: following a freight train 100's of miles on otherwise lightly used track.

* Not technically true, but Amtrak cannot do anything about it. The Department of Justice would need to take action on Amtrak's behalf, and they never have.

This bill, however, would have given Amtrak some ability to force railways to cooperate with them on performance metrics by giving Amtrak the ability to sue them directly without DOJ involvement.

Text - S.1500 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Rail Passenger Fairness Act

Text for S.1500 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Rail Passenger Fairness Act

www.congress.gov

So basically CN dispatch doesn't give a F about passenger trains.

We should have something like that in Canada, maybe the Canadian will actually be on time for once. 9 hours from Parry Sound to Toronto is insane when you can do it in a car in 3.

 

[crs1026]

It's not like the Dundas sub is packed to the brim with CN freight.

Ummmm…..

The first 15 miles west from Aldershot are a rather significant grade - it’s the ruling grade for the whole line. Freights lose speed on the grade, so they are only moving at 10-20 mph over that zone. And they seem to frequently stall, tying up the line until another set of engines can be sent to rescue them. The next set of crossovers are at Copetown, meaning that once a westbound train passes Aldershot, the line is effectively single track until that train passes Copetown. That can easily take an hour every time a freight runs - put a VIA behind it and the passenger train will face delay.

There is also more on-line switching done on the Dundas Sub than east of Toronto where switching locations are spaced further apart.. Brantford, Paris, Beachville all see local service; London is a setoff/lift yard…. more congestion.

Everything about the reality of freight and passenger not being compatible any more because of speed/passing/overtaking constraints plays out in spades on the Dundas Sub. CN will not be offering VIA an abundance of added slots on that line.

- Paul

 

[Bordercollie]

Ummmm…..

The first 15 miles west from Aldershot are a rather significant grade - it’s the ruling grade for the whole line. Freights lose speed on the grade, so they are only moving at 10-20 mph over that zone. And they seem to frequently stall, tying up the line until another set of engines can be sent to rescue them. The next set of crossovers are at Copetown, meaning that once a westbound train passes Aldershot, the line is effectively single track until that train passes Copetown. That can easily take an hour every time a freight runs - put a VIA behind it and the passenger train will face delay.

There is also more on-line switching done on the Dundas Sub than east of Toronto where switching locations are spaced further apart.. Brantford, Paris, Beachville all see local service; London is a setoff/lift yard…. more congestion.

Everything about the reality of freight and passenger not being compatible any more because of speed/passing/overtaking constraints plays out in spades on the Dundas Sub. CN will not be offering VIA an abundance of added slots on that line.

- Paul

I thought that Metrolinx spent a ton of money to add an additional track and a bridge between Aldershot and Bayview Junction and additional capacity at Bayview Junction?

 

[smallspy]

I thought that Metrolinx spent a ton of money to add an additional track and a bridge between Aldershot and Bayview Junction and additional capacity at Bayview Junction?

That capacity increase was for GO service only, and into Hamilton.

It does little for the Dundas Sub, especially considering the operational constraints of the grade as Paul outlined above.

Dan

 

[crs1026]

So basically CN dispatch doesn't give a F about passenger trains.

We should have something like that in Canada, maybe the Canadian will actually be on time for once. 9 hours from Parry Sound to Toronto is insane when you can do it in a car in 3.

It depends who you include in “dispatch”. I know several RTC’s personally, and some appreciate VIA and do their best to keep VIA moving.
But at a more official level, you can be sure that freight comes first and VIA’s operations will not stand in the way of that. And the RTC’s know that if they delay a freight, they will catch it. Everybody has a boss.

- Paul

 

[smallspy]

It depends who you include in “dispatch”. I know several RTC’s personally, and some appreciate VIA and do their best to keep VIA moving.
But at a more official level, you can be sure that freight comes first and VIA’s operations will not stand in the way of that. And the RTC’s know that if they delay a freight, they will catch it. Everybody has a boss.

- Paul

To put it into perspective.....

A good friend of Paul's and mine is a Chief RTC - he's the one who makes the actual decisions each shift. He loves passenger trains, and lives riding them.

But when it comes to the job, if the VIA's are getting in the way, they get shuffled aside to let the money go through.

Dan

 

[Urban Sky]

CN is neither a government agency nor a charity and they are liable to their shareholders for putting their interests first. Major European countries invest annually between 40 and 567 Euros (C$54-763) per capita into their rail infrastructure, which translates to C$2-29 billion of taxpayer money invested into this country's rail infrastructure:

Source: Allianz pro Schiene

I'm not saying that the taxpayer is getting a bad deal, but he gets what he pays for (i.e. almost nothing)...

 

[Bordercollie]

CN is neither a government agency nor a charity and they are liable to their shareholders for putting their interests first. Major European countries invest annually between 40 and 567 Euros (C$54-763) per capita into their rail infrastructure, which translates to C$2-29 billion of taxpayer money invested into this country's rail infrastructure:

View attachment 406524
Source: Allianz pro Schiene

I'm not saying that the taxpayer is getting a bad deal, but he gets what he pays for (i.e. almost nothing)...

So if they did something similar to what was done on the Kingston sub, CN would be more likely to play ball?

 

[Urban Sky]

So if they did something similar to what was done on the Kingston sub, CN would be more likely to play ball?

You mean the pay-and-pray approach?

Source: Auditor General of Canada (2016)

 

[Bordercollie]

You mean the pay-and-pray approach?

Source: Auditor General of Canada (2016)

But was that an assumption without a guarantee from the host railway? Need to hold them to it. Penalties if a certain threshold is not achieved.

Or could VIA own that third track exclusively?

 

[crs1026]

But was that an assumption without a guarantee from the host railway? Need to hold them to it. Penalties if a certain threshold is not achieved.

The terms of that project clearly were not fiscally responsible - VIA had very little project management capability and virtually no leverage to oversee the work or challenge CN's non-performance. Of course, it's not necessarily clear that the original $1.6M/km projection was ever realistic, either.

The point is, even with that debacle, and other instances documented by Ontario's A-G, Ottawa has shown absolutely no interest in tightening up the law or holding the railways' feet to the fire for this kind of investment. There's no reason to think that similar work elsewhere would go any better - which is why the case for putting VIA on its own line is so compelling.

Or could VIA own that third track exclusively?

You would have to ask CN. Anecdotally, one hears that they are not comfortable with that kind of arrangement. The GO infrastructure on CN near Hamilton and between Bramalea and Georgetown has some elements that were built for GO and the contract between GO and CN allows GO some improved rights to use of that part of the infrastructure that they have paid for.

- Paul