VIA Rail

[smallspy]

So then the extra crews get off at Oshawa and head back to Union on westbound trains?

Or got cab'd back, yes.

I always thought it is short sighted of CN to only build single track bridges instead of making the whole line double tracked.

The line was designed and built for the anticipated traffic levels. Considering that they haven't had to add additional track for their own purposes, and have in fact removed one siding, it seems to me that they had anticipated correctly all those years ago.

Surely they can have all VIA trains go to Union Station via Oshawa VIA station. Am I missing something?

And what does CN do with all of their trains? Or GO with those on the Richmond Hill Line?

They cannot of the bridge is out of commission, and there was a fatality making the repair take longer.

I wonder what's going to happen to GO trains for Monday and Tuesday?

The accident was no where close to the bridge. As I understand it, the work on the bridge was completed more-or-less on time.

They were undercutting the track between Mile 314 and Mile 315, where the line crosses under Whites Road and Granite Court.

Dan

 

[smallspy]

I'd guess relatively service from Union to Rouge Hill or Guildwood, and then a bus bridge to Pickering, and then some trains to Oshawa.

They can't service Rouge Hill - they can't access it from the east due to the accident, and it's too far away from the crossovers at Guildwood and would make service unwieldly.

There will be a half-hourly train service from Oshawa to Pickering, a bus bridge to Guildwood, and half-hourly train service from Guildwood to Union.

Dan

 

[Urban Sky]

The line was designed and built for the anticipated traffic levels. Considering that they haven't had to add additional track for their own purposes, and have in fact removed one siding, it seems to me that they had anticipated correctly all those years ago.

One has to admire the diversity of opinions present in this forum when some commenters call CN "short-sighted" for only single-tracking the Eastern end of the York Sub, whereas other commenters insist that CN will single-track the Kingston Sub (which will still host all VIA Lakeshore traffic in addition to everything which runs over that segment of the York Sub) the very second VIA acquires a parallel route...

 

[nfitz]

And what does CN do with all of their trains? Or GO with those on the Richmond Hill Line?

Would have to work around CN.

I hadn't realised that CN was only single-track anywhere on the York-sub.

Which puzzles me - surely freight traffic on the Kingston sub can't be greater than the eastern end of the York sub. So why then is VIA so constrained on 2-track (and especially 3-track) sections of the Kingston sub?

The need for HFR through Peterborough rather than dedicated tracks for VIA puzzles me even more if CN only needs one, and at most two, tracks.

 

[Urban Sky]

So why then is VIA so constrained on 2-track (and especially 3-track) sections of the Kingston sub?

Maybe because VIA wants to operate its trains faster than CN's freight trains, but CN is not willing to give VIA dispatching priority? Therefore, VIA trains can only overtake any trains if they don't slow down any CN trains - and that is a lot easier to achieve with 3 or more tracks than with 2 tracks...

 

[crs1026]

Would have to work around CN.

I hadn't realised that CN was only single-track anywhere on the York-sub.

Which puzzles me - surely freight traffic on the Kingston sub can't be greater than the eastern end of the York sub. So why then is VIA so constrained on 2-track (and especially 3-track) sections of the Kingston sub?

The need for HFR through Peterborough rather than dedicated tracks for VIA puzzles me even more if CN only needs one, and at most two, tracks.

To be precise - the York Sub is double track from Mac Yard to McCowans (12.8 miles) and then single track McCowans to Pickering Jct (12.2 miles).

There are crossovers connecting to the Kingston Sub at Liverpool and Pickering Jct. These are about 1.5 miles apart. Once upon a time, that allowed CN freights to clear the Kingston Sub there for meets, but with trains having grown longer, that's no longer possible. A westbound freight will now have to hold on the main line east of Pickering Jct to wait for an eastbound freight to come "down the hill" from McCowans. That ties up one of the two Kingston tracks that VIA uses.

There used to be a siding halfway between McCowans and Liverpool called Beare. It also became too short to be usable, so it was removed not too long ago.

So yes, the York Sub is one-train-at-a-time from the connection with the Kingston Sub. That may make VIA one-train-at-a-time through the Whitby-Pickering stretch also.... and VIA has no ability to predict or schedule around when that logjam might arise. That unpredictability is what gets in VIA's way.

- Paul

 

[Bordercollie]

When they built the Flyover at the Uxbridge sub they didnt to think of keeping the connecting track with the York SUB in place incase or required detours? And additional operational flexibility?

 

[nfitz]

Maybe because VIA wants to operate its trains faster than CN's freight trains, but CN is not willing to give VIA dispatching priority? Therefore, VIA trains can only overtake any trains if they don't slow down any CN trains - and that is a lot easier to achieve with 3 or more tracks than with 2 tracks...

If CN only needs a single track, why can't VIA simply operate on 3 tracks - perhaps with some sidings for freights to pass each other?

Seems more practical than starting a whole new route to Ottawa, and then having to duplicate a lot of service through Kingston.

To be precise - the York Sub is double track from Mac Yard to McCowans (12.8 miles) and then single track McCowans to Pickering Jct (12.2 miles).

There are crossovers connecting to the Kingston Sub at Liverpool and Pickering Jct. These are about 1.5 miles apart. Once upon a time, that allowed CN freights to clear the Kingston Sub there for meets, but with trains having grown longer, that's no longer possible. A westbound freight will now have to hold on the main line east of Pickering Jct to wait for an eastbound freight to come "down the hill" from McCowans. That ties up one of the two Kingston tracks that VIA uses.

There used to be a siding halfway between McCowans and Liverpool called Beare. It also became too short to be usable, so it was removed not too long ago.

So yes, the York Sub is one-train-at-a-time from the connection with the Kingston Sub. That may make VIA one-train-at-a-time through the Whitby-Pickering stretch also.... and VIA has no ability to predict or schedule around when that logjam might arise. That unpredictability is what gets in VIA's way.

So CN, instead of maintaining (or expanding) their sidings, took advantage of the free infrastructure for VIA to be able to run longer trains and decommission their sidings.

Time for the feds to get serious about regulating the situation.

 

[smallspy]

When they built the Flyover at the Uxbridge sub they didnt to think of keeping the connecting track with the York SUB in place incase or required detours? And additional operational flexibility?

Operational flexibility for a once-in-10-year event? Or cost savings by not having to build and maintain a new connection? The bean counter in me sees the obvious answer.

Also remember that the Uxbridge Sub passes under 14th Avenue. This means that the original connection would also have to be regraded as well.

Dan

 

[Bordercollie]

If CN only needs a single track, why can't VIA simply operate on 3 tracks - perhaps with some sidings for freights to pass each other?

Seems more practical than starting a whole new route to Ottawa, and then having to duplicate a lot of service through Kingston.

Likely because even if you where to build additional tracks in the existing corridor there is no guarantee that you wont be impeded by freight traffic. Since you dont work the track dispatching and rack time will always be dictated by the host railway.

Building your own corridor would allow you to run train as much as you want when you want. No freight trains blocking your path.

 

[crs1026]

If CN only needs a single track, why can't VIA simply operate on 3 tracks - perhaps with some sidings for freights to pass each other?

Seems more practical than starting a whole new route to Ottawa, and then having to duplicate a lot of service through Kingston.

So CN, instead of maintaining (or expanding) their sidings, took advantage of the free infrastructure for VIA to be able to run longer trains and decommission their sidings.

Time for the feds to get serious about regulating the situation.

Pure speculation: CN likely needs one track plus passing zones (as opposed to sidings). So two tracks some of the time, possibly segments of fiveish miles spaced every ten or so miles (similar to how CP reconfigured the Winchester Sub). The reason being, a 2-3 mile long freight train has to enter the passing zone at a fair speed and not decelerate until it’s in the clear….otherwise it will take too long to creep into the passing track, blocking the main line.

VIA cannot afford to encounter two freight trains passing each other - as even with a third track, at hourly headways there will be not one but two VIA’s to accommodate. Wiggling opposing VIA trains past each other will cause delays and slow running to VIA trains. So, no, more third track will not solve the problem, although it might help somewhat.

Expanding CN’s sidings is not trivial. In the case of the York Sub, the east end of the Liverpool-Pickering passing track is bounded by Highway 401 on one end and a deep ravine at Duffins Creek at the other. If it’s a choice between building a substantial bridge to extend the passing track, or just laying claim to the two tracks that CN owns, then obviously CN is going to serve its own interest ahead of VIA. If VIA wants to build the extension, fair enough…. but that’s just one location, and there are others…. Port Hope, Belleville, Napanee, Kingston all have spots where only two tracks can be had without bridges. Telling CN to relinquish even one of its two tracks in those locations is not going to fly. There may be enough track capacity for a moderate local service - mostly because local trains will catch up to freight less often - but an hourly service with express timings is not feasible.

There are more draconian solutions, if you want to rewrite the national transportation policy…. but that isn’t realistically going to happen.

- Paul

- Paul

 

[robmausser]

Likely because even if you where to build additional tracks in the existing corridor there is no guarantee that you wont be impeded by freight traffic. Since you dont work the track dispatching and rack time will always be dictated by the host railway.

Building your own corridor would allow you to run train as much as you want when you want. No freight trains blocking your path.

You dont even need a likely at the beginning of your sentence; exactly this happened.

In the late 2000's, VIA rail paid CN to build sidings and double/triple tracking throughout the Kingston Sub from Toronto to Montreal. At great expense mind you: an auditor generals investigation claimed that CN overcharged VIA up to 300% more than standard prices for this work.

VIA's ontime performance didnt budge and actually eventually worsened. CN just lengthened their trains to not fit the sidings, and used the extra trackage to improve their own operations.

 

[nfitz]

Likely because even if you where to build additional tracks in the existing corridor there is no guarantee that you wont be impeded by freight traffic. Since you dont work the track dispatching and rack time will always be dictated by the host railway.

There's ways about that - both physically and operationally. You don't see GO traffic between Pickering and Oshawa disrupted by freight (because they made sure it was physically impossible).

And for whatever reason full-day GO service on CN/CP lines from Burlington(?) to whatever Hamilton James Street is called these days has no major delays.

 

[lenaitch]

View attachment 365832
Looks like the construction work on Lakeshore East gives people a new view of the city when going to and from Montreal and Ottawa. I find it crazy that at Hagerman, Doncaster, and Snider you can only head west on the York subdivision when coming from downtown. The only way onto the York subdivision east is via the Halton subdivision which is as far west as you can go and you would be heading northwest to turn east. Was there better network redundancy in the past and then it was sold off or was it always designed to all roads lead to the Toronto Yard?

I can only assume CN built their connections with the York sub. for their operational needs, and had no need to come out of the downtown Toronto yard via Newmarket, Bala or Uxbridge subs when they could simply go east via the Kingston sub.

 

[APTA-2048]

It's due to very sad circumstances, but VIA trains now pass by close to where I live by the Rouge Valley. I had the day off, so I went to get a couple photos.