VIA Rail

[robmausser]

Except I beleive you are showing the wrong approach into Montreal. Every HFR map I have seen shows a station in Laval, so I expect they will use the QGR track all the way to CP's Parc Sub, using the route shown in red on my map below. The issue then becomes how to get from there to Central Station. There used to be a track connecting CP's Parc and CN's St. Laurent Subdivisions (where it says Chabanel), but it was torn up and there is a Home Depot there now. More likely they would continue on the Parc Sub, to the Adirondack Sub and then build a new connection from that to CN's Montreal Sub, though that isn't particularly easy either. Another option is to use existing track to Gare Lucien-L'Allier, but that obviously has its own issues as well.

View attachment 290462

yeah I realize that but the plans are subject to change. I dont believe they will come into Toronto on the old CP Don Branch for example.

There is already a connection to the QGR with the new Mascouche line, I really believe they will decide to use this instead.

 

[roger1818]

Most people seem to either want to get rid of any service unless it only serves existing service, but only the profitable ones. In other words, the Lakeshore route., in their eyes needs to get shut down. The fact that Kingston is one of the top stations for ridership is irrelevant to them.

More proof that you are the king of strawman arguments.

Do you have proof of this?

From VIA's website (note that the Lakeshore route is part of the proposed network):

 

[roger1818]

yeah I realize that but the plans are subject to change. I dont believe they will come into Toronto on the old CP Don Branch for example.

There is already a connection to the QGR with the new Mascouche line, I really believe they will decide to use this instead.

That would mean getting onto shared tracks sooner, but you may be correct.

 

[kEiThZ]

Well, if the main preoccupation is to connect Toronto to Ottawa and Montréal only, HFR is great. You should go for it! But VIA, or anyone for that matter, shouldn't sell it as a measure to solve mobility on the Corridor.

When has anybody ever said that HFR would "solve mobility on the Corridor". This is, again, a strawman.

It's just a cheap HSR, you've proved my point.

It's not HSR. Has never been pitched as such. And specifically chose a model that would rule out scope creep towards HSR (the cost of which killed previous plans).

HFR does allow a path to a future "cheap HSR" if there's interest in future investment. It's a shorter path than the Lakeshore route. It's a corridor that connects major cities, yet doesn't run through expensive populated areas. And it should habitualize intercity train travel a bit more, helping build the social, political and economic case. But we're easily over a decade out from a push for HSR. Would need to complete HFR from Quebec City to Windsor before that can be seriously discussed.

 

[kEiThZ]

Peterborough (121 721) and Trois-Rivières aside (156 042), the new line runs in the middle of nowhere,

That's a feature. Not a bug. Running through the middle of nowhere connecting the first, second and sixth largest metros in the country is great. Makes it easier to build and cheaper to improve in the future.

and I don't see any good reason why they should be preferred to Drummondville (96 118), Kingston (161 175), Belleville (103 472), Trenton/Quinte West (43 577), Cobourg/Northumberland County (85 598), and Bowmanville/Clarington (92 013).

But if the HFR really proves successful, and the majority of trains get diverted on the new line, leaving barely one or two trains/day on the Kingston Sub, then the Corridor will have a negative balance in terms of potential ridership. Leaving the big three aside, the catchment area diminishes by more than 300 000 units.

You must have missed the part of the HFR proposal that includes a new hub in Kingston and train service better tailored to those Lakeshore communities. They most certainly aren't going down to 1-2 trains a day.

But again, if the objective is to connect Toronto to Ottawa and Montréal only, I rest my case!

How dare they prioritize connecting the first largest, second largest and sixth largest metros in the country with a combined catchment population of at least 6 million (conservative estimate) or 15% of the country's population, and the country's financial and political centres.

Yes the goal of HFR is to improve connectivity between those centres because VIA has done a sub-par job of this to date. It's why so many people drive and fly between these cities. For a guy who loves to talk about Europe and Asia, you seem clueless to the value of connecting large metros.

 

[roger1818]

Longer? It seems to be a lot shorter to me, considering that Prescott to Ottawa, via Kemptville, is basically a straight line, while to get to Ottawa via the Brockville and Smiths Falls Subs the train geographically turns west...

View attachment 290458

You might be right on that one (a quick line drawing showed the route via Prescot to Brockville (and on to Toronto) is 7 km shorter than the current route, but I would need to do more accurate measurements to be sure). Seems like a lot of new track to build to save a very small distance when VIA already owns all the track between Ottawa and Brockville.

 

[Urban Sky]

More proof that you are the king of strawman arguments.



From VIA's website (note that the Lakeshore route is part of the proposed network):

View attachment 290463

Big shout-out to @roger1818! The discussions here would be much more focussed and less ever-circling around the same long-debunked bullshit claims if more posters would soundly reject these constant attempts to derail all existing discussions so that this commenter can dictate what topics we discuss and which ones we don’t...

You must have missed the part of the HFR proposal that includes a new hub in Kingston and train service better tailored to those Lakeshore communities.

To be fair: he is new to the discussion here, whereas a certain other commenter in the discussion here has so far resisted dozens of attempts to make him acknowledge the existence of the evidence which is there...

 

[roger1818]

You might be right on that one (a quick line drawing showed the route via Prescot to Brockville (and on to Toronto) is 7 km shorter than the current route, but I would need to do more accurate measurements to be sure). Seems like a lot of new track to build to save a very small distance when VIA already owns all the track between Ottawa and Brockville.

By comparison, the current Ottawa-Toronto route is 446 km. I estimate HFR to be 404 km. That is a savings of about 42 km or 9.5% of the total distance. That is a much more significant savings.

 

[kEiThZ]

There is no reasons that most of the existing trains couldn't stay on the Lakeshore line.

Let's just ignore cost, technical feasibility (with regulations on track sharing, curve radii, grade separations, etc), and the willingness of freight cos to cooperate in substantial modification of their corridors. Other than that....

You also seem to ignoring that there will be plenty of trains left on Lakeshore. They'll just be originating in Kingston.

Do you have proof of this?

Other than VIA's own maps, how about the words of Kingston's mayor after his negotiations with VIA on a regional hub:

VIA Rail upgrades Kingston service: the making of a regional hub – Mayor Bryan Paterson

 

[kEiThZ]

To be fair: he is new to the discussion here

The periodic new posters who endlessly jump to, "why can't the federal government simply nationalize the railways to make my trip between Toronto and Montreal easier" is getting annoying as hell. Used to just be Canadians. But now we've seem to have attracted foreigners who seem to be equally clueless to the history of this country and the context in which our existing railways were built and operate.

I imagine if I told a European they were morons for moving so much freight be road and that they should just nationalize their railroads to make it easier to move freight, they'd think I was nuts.

 

[ec_traindriver]

It's not HSR. Has never been pitched as such. [...omissis...] It's a shorter path than the Lakeshore route. It's a corridor that connects major cities, yet doesn't run through expensive populated areas. And it should habitualize intercity train travel a bit more, helping build the social, political and economic case.

[...omissis...]

How dare they prioritize connecting the first largest, second largest and sixth largest metros in the country with a combined catchment population of at least 6 million (conservative estimate) or 15% of the country's population, and the country's financial and political centres.

You can't reasonably be talking about "habitualizing" intercity train travel, and then pretend that they mostly connect Toronto, Ottawa, and Montréal only. I'm sorry, that's not intercity travel: it's a poor man's HSR.

You must have missed the part of the HFR proposal that includes a new hub in Kingston and train service better tailored to those Lakeshore communities. They most certainly aren't going down to 1-2 trains a day.

Oh, I would actually love to see such a proposal. I couldn't find it anywhere. According to the last pre-Covid VIA timetable in my hands, there were only 10 services/day between Toronto and Ottawa, with most intermediate stations already getting as little as 2 services only. If services like #40, #42, and #646 were to be re-routed on the new line, would their place be taken by newer services?

Yes the goal of HFR is to improve connectivity between those centres because VIA has done a sub-par job of this to date. It's why so many people drive and fly between these cities. For a guy who loves to talk about Europe and Asia, you seem clueless to the value of connecting large metros.

VIA has done a sub-par job to date? Let's throw the baby out with the bathwater, then!

You also seem to ignoring that there will be plenty of trains left on Lakeshore. They'll just be originating in Kingston.

Bound for Toronto only, I suppose? So no more through trains to Ottawa or Montréal on the Kingston Sub, right?

I imagine if I told a European they were morons for moving so much freight be road and that they should just nationalize their railroads to make it easier to move freight, they'd think I was nuts.

On the contrary. I perfectly know we are morons.

 

[roger1818]

Oh, I would actually love to see such a proposal. I couldn't find it anywhere. According to the last pre-Covid VIA timetable in my hands, there were only 10 services/day between Toronto and Ottawa, with most intermediate stations already getting as little as 2 services only. If services like #40, #42, and #646 were to be re-routed on the new line, would their place be taken by newer services?

In addition to the link provided by @kEiThZ a few posts back, I posted this about a month ago.

Kingston Mayor Bryan Paterson tweeted this map in 2017 about post HFR frequency of service in Kingston. It shows 12 trains a day to Toronto and 6 trains to each of Ottawa and Montreal. That is down slightly from the pre COVID service of 17 westbound and 13 eastbound trains on weekdays.

https://twitter.com/x/status/890579315255123968

 

[roger1818]

The periodic new posters who endlessly jump to, "why can't the federal government simply nationalize the railways to make my trip between Toronto and Montreal easier" is getting annoying as hell. Used to just be Canadians. But now we've seem to have attracted foreigners who seem to be equally clueless to the history of this country and the context in which our existing railways were built and operate.

I imagine if I told a European they were morons for moving so much freight be road and that they should just nationalize their railroads to make it easier to move freight, they'd think I was nuts.

It is kind of the nature of the beast with forums. While it is good practice to go back and read old posts before posting, this thread is up to 548 pages which makes that a challenge.

 

[kEiThZ]

Oh, I would actually love to see such a proposal.

See the Tweet from the Mayor of Kingston posted above. And service originating from Kingston and timed for their trips is worth a hell of a lot than stops on the way between the major metros.

VIA has done a sub-par job to date? Let's throw the baby out with the bathwater, then!

I'm beginning to think all you have to offer to the discussion are strawman arguments.

VIA does a less than adequate job connecting the big metros. HFR addresses this problem somewhat. How you took that mean we should "throw out the baby with the bathwater" is beyond me.

Bound for Toronto only, I suppose? So no more through trains to Ottawa or Montréal on the Kingston Sub, right?

You have this strange habit of presuming instead of asking. Why would you presume that service from Kingston would only go to Toronto and not to Ottawa or Montreal?

It is kind of the nature of the beast with forums. While it is good practice to go back and read old posts before posting, this thread is up to 548 pages which makes that a challenge.

Then ask. This new member seems to be making a habit of of constantly assuming the worst or even the nonsensical. And then there's the moving goalposts.

So first we heard how HFR was bad. Then that it was cheap HSR. And then that it wouldn't serve the Lakeshore communities. And then that it would have trains between Kingston and Toronto. At some point, being new stops being an excuse for being presumptive, lazy and incurious.

Not willing to read 500+ pages? Sure. But then ask about the topic and learn, instead of jumping right to conclusions about an idea.

 

[crs1026]

I'm probably a royal pain, but pardon my pedantry. Every time I cycle through the whole topic, HFR appeals in many ways.... but there is always one non-sequitur that remains. If I change my point of view to resolve that one non-sequitur, I can do it... but the resolving explanation creates some other non-sequitur that pops up in its place. It's an intellectual whack-a-mole, that never gets me to all cylinders firing.

Perhaps I am nitpicking things that are thrown out as supporting premises, rather than the proposal itself.

Anyways, here are my non-sequiturs.

- Service to Kingston will remain sufficient, but no subsidy will be required
- Service to Kingston will remain sufficient, but continuing conflict with freight will no longer create a problem, notwithstanding the likelihood of further growth in freight traffic
- Service to Kingston will remain reliable, notwithstanding no change in the relationship between CN and VIA, which has not shown a good balance of incentives and penalties to date to assure reliability
- Coproduction between freight railways works well in BC and in Northern Ontario, but contemplating it as part of a HFR solution is unreasonable and contrary to prudent transportation policy
- Coteau to Montreal is a viable zone for VIA to raise its operation to hourly Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto service, plus sufficient Lakeshore trains to Kingston.... notwithstanding no change in either the pattern of freight conflicts, or the balance of power with CN over operational priority.
- A change in contractual relationships with CN to clear the track for VIA (where sharing is unavoidable) is in the offing, but it cannot be applied to other parts of the network to resolve the freight-passenger operational conflicts elsewhere.
- Changes in contractual relationships between VIA and CN can only be struck through mutual agreement, and not by legislation or by placing disputes before an impartial third party

I am not going to prolong the discussion - but perhaps you see my confusion. I can't make it all align. Hence my prolonged and energetic pursuit of other solutions, and my willingness to push back on supposed immovables. I don't have all the answers - but I remain skeptical, somehow, about something.

- Paul