VIA Rail

[Urban Sky]

I really think you are overestimating the revenue on Kingston-only services. Go back and look at what the frequencies were in and out of Kingston in the early 1970s, when CN ran expresses that didn't stop there, and before they (and later VIA) upgraded the Kingston to Ottawa service.

CN/CP (and later VIA) scheduled only 3 Toronto-Ottawa runs between the end-1950s and October 1984 (and again between January 1990 and January 1992, while it was even less than that between 1961 and 1966), whereas we are at 10 trains currently, so what exactly does your observation tell us?

 

[kEiThZ]

I'd think it would consistently become close to 3 hours. I really think you are overestimating the revenue on Kingston-only services. Go back and look at what the frequencies were in and out of Kingston in the early 1970s, when CN ran expresses that didn't stop there, and before they (and later VIA) upgraded the Kingston to Ottawa service.

It's not like they'll be maintaining a lot of that track (particularly to Ottawa) to the same track standards any more.

How valid are observations from nearly a half century ago?

Also, VIA now owns substantial portion of the track to Ottawa. Trip time is closer to 2 hrs on that route. And there's a growing exurban commuter market here. I think 6-8 trains a day would work here. It's the Toronto and Montreal legs that are the issue because of a higher dependence on CN and longer trip times which make exurban commuting more challenging. It's on these segments, we'll see larger cuts in service in my opinion. I'm think 8-10 departures out of Kingston in each direction. Max.

 

[kEiThZ]

@crs1026

Where did you read about the 3, 5, 7 car configs? I remember hearing that. But can't find anything now.

My only complaint about the new trains is that they didn't spend a bit more to get the PriestmanGoode design, that ÖBB ordered for their new Railjet trains on their Viaggio coaches. It's so much more attractive (and possibly comfortable) than what we're getting. I think it's essential for VIA to make this as much of a stepchange in passenger experience as possible to maximize PR from the changeover.

New Intercity and Nightjet — PriestmanGoode

www.priestmangoode.com

 

[nfitz]

How valid are observations from nearly a half century ago?

Given the reduction in rail demand since then - highly relevant. Particularly at how relatively low population growth (and in some cases shrinkage) has been in eastern Ontario outside of the major centres.

And there's a growing exurban commuter market here. I think 6-8 trains a day would work here.

This is naivete in the extreme. Even if they start at that level, it's going to be a major target for cuts by future governments ... look at how long the 3 trains a day to Niagara and 5 trains a day to Kitchener lasted, in much denser markets.

Sure, it's great for Peterborough ... but it's not good for anywhere south of the future mainline that currently enjoys frequent service.

CN/CP (and later VIA) scheduled only 3 Toronto-Ottawa runs between the end-1950s and October 1984 (and again between January 1990 and January 1992, while it was even less than that between 1961 and 1966), whereas we are at 10 trains currently, so what exactly does your observation tell us?

That the population in Ottawa has significantly increased. The population in Kingston hasn't, and some towns have even shrunk.

There's no way that there's going to be 10 trains a day between Kingston and Ottawa.Not after the expressway has been constructed!

Look at the relative ridership of Kingston to Ottawa and Kingston to Montreal compared to Toronto to Ottawa and Toronto to Montreal. That should tell you exactly what kind of service there will be. It's going to be relatively crap compared to now. Maybe not day one, as they try and keep all sorts of meaningless promises ... but wait 10 years.

The HFR plan is poison for Kingston services - to pretend otherwise is disingenuous. At the same time it leads to poor Montreal to Toronto times, and a lack of connection between services to Quebec City (because we all know that the REM isn't going to be leaving space for VIA in the tunnel, with a metro every 150 seconds ... every 90 seconds with ultimate capacity). Yeah, it improves Ottawa to Toronto services ...

 

[smallspy]

@crs1026

Where did you read about the 3, 5, 7 car configs? I remember hearing that. But can't find anything now.

VIA did a presentation to a US group in February, and the info that they gave was bit ambiguous. They were referring to the current corridor train sizes, but it could have been (and was) interpreted as describing the size of the new Siemens-built trains.

The new trains will come delivered only in 5-car configurations.

Dan

 

[Urban Sky]

This is naivete in the extreme. Even if they start at that level, it's going to be a major target for cuts by future governments ... look at how long the 3 trains a day to Niagara and 5 trains a day to Kitchener lasted, in much denser markets.

Kitchener and Niagara are covered by current or future GO services. It’s not the responsibility of the federal taxpayer to fund competition to a provincially funded passenger rail service.

Sure, it's great for Peterborough ... but it's not good for anywhere south of the future mainline that currently enjoys frequent service.

Can you name one city (other than Kingston or Oshawa) “anywhere south of the future mainline which currently enjoys frequent service”?

 

[kEiThZ]

VIA did a presentation to a US group in February, and the info that they gave was bit ambiguous. They were referring to the current corridor train sizes, but it could have been (and was) interpreted as describing the size of the new Siemens-built trains.

The new trains will come delivered only in 5-car configurations.

Dan

That makes a lot more sense. Having so many different configs has got to be a management nightmare and would only get worse with the need for cab cars at the other end.

Also tells me they wouldn't use this fleet on the Corridor services if HFR happens. They'd shift these new trains to HFR and get something else for the Kingston hub.

 

[nfitz]

Kitchener and Niagara are covered by current or future GO services. It’s not the responsibility of the federal taxpayer to fund competition to a provincially funded passenger rail service.

If that was true, then VIA shouldn't be looking at upgrading Monreal to Quebec City services. Not to mention Kingston to Toronto if the Toronto to Montreal trains don't run through there!

As they are, then it isn't true! Seems an odd argument that it's because of GO, when GO didn't start serving either market until after VIA cancelled most of the trains. It was never in GO's geographical mandate.

Can you name one city (other than Kingston or Oshawa) “anywhere south of the future mainline which currently enjoys frequent service”?

Relatively frequent, compared to what it used to be, and what it will be in the future if the HFR through Peterborough gets built. Belleville has 8 trains a day to Toronto. Brockville currently has 7 trains a day to Toronto and 5 to Ottawa. Even Cornwall has 5 trains a day to Montreal. There would be less of these - and I'd assume that the remaining trains to Kingston will be making a lot more stops, and taking closer to 3 hours to run to Toronto - perhaps longer if they stop maintaining the track to such high standards.

 

[gweed123]

With VIA potentially offering anemic service along the Lakeshore once the T-O-M service moves further north, it begs the question: Is VIA really the right group to run the local service?

Personally, I think it would make more sense for the Province to run that service, and a couple of other routes too. Most notably:

• Toronto-Kingston local
• Ottawa-Kingston local
• Toronto-London local
• Toronto-Niagara Falls (in essence replacing the GO service)
• Toronto-North Bay

This would in essence tier rail service in Ontario. GTHA commuter services would be run by GO, local intercity trips would be run by the Province, and express intercity trips would be run by VIA.

 

[crs1026]

@crs1026

My only complaint about the new trains is that they didn't spend a bit more to get the PriestmanGoode design, that ÖBB ordered for their new Railjet trains on their Viaggio coaches. It's so much more attractive (and possibly comfortable) than what we're getting. I think it's essential for VIA to make this as much of a stepchange in passenger experience as possible to maximize PR from the changeover.

Someone who had the opportunity to inspect the Amtrak model with an eye to VIA’s use had two issues to report: one being that the cab cars will not have doors at the cab end, which will force crews to walk through these coaches if they need to alight for operational reasons, eg throwing switches manually. The other being the number of places in the locomotive carbody where one can see daylight....which could imply problems with snow infiltration into the loco.

As to the interiors, the biggest continuing challenge for VIA is weaning riders towards comfort with quads and rear facing seats, to avoid turning seats at ends of runs. I recently rode a partially filled train where at the outset, several passengers asked the Service Manager if they could change seats to face forward. He replied that they weren’t planning on boarding anyone to our coach at intermediate stops, so by all means switch seats. This led to a stampede, with every forward seat being filled and most rear facing seats left empty. Looked odd with everyone crammed into half the seats. Personally, I was happy with the extra space when my rear-facing seatmate bailed, but I am clearly the exception.

- Paul

 

[Urban Sky]

If that was true, then VIA shouldn't be looking at upgrading Monreal to Quebec City services. Not to mention Kingston to Toronto if the Toronto to Montreal trains don't run through there!

Apples and oranges:

• Toronto-Kitchener is a 101 km long regional corridor served by GO trains since December 2011 (and addition to GO buses)
• Toronto-Niagara is a 132 km long regional corridor served by GO buses now and in the near future by GO trains
• Toronto-Kingston is a 254 km long intercity corridor which never had passenger rail service other than by VIA, CN or its pre-cedessors
• Montreal-Quebec is a 272 km long intercity corridor which never had passenger rail service other than by VIA, CP, CN or its pre-cedessors

As they are, then it isn't true! Seems an odd argument that it's because of GO, when GO didn't start serving either market until after VIA cancelled most of the trains. It was never in GO's geographical mandate.

I’m not talking about the reasons why these trains were cancelled (though the morning train from Kitchener to Toronto was cancelled in December 2012 and thus exactly one year after GO extended its Georgetown line to Kitchener), but the difficulties when arguing for a return of the trains which were cancelled in January 1990 and December 2012...

Relatively frequent, compared to what it used to be, and what it will be in the future if the HFR through Peterborough gets built. Belleville has 8 trains a day to Toronto. Brockville currently has 7 trains a day to Toronto and 5 to Ottawa. Even Cornwall has 5 trains a day to Montreal. There would be less of these - and I'd assume that the remaining trains to Kingston will be making a lot more stops, and taking closer to 3 hours to run to Toronto - perhaps longer if they stop maintaining the track to such high standards.

How many trains are there currently which connect...
...Brockville and Montreal?
...Belleville and Montreal?
...Cobourg and Montreal?
...Cobourg and Belleville?
...Cobourg and Cornwall?
...Cobourg and Port Hope?
...Belleville and Napanee?

These are some of the markets which would be much better served by a service where every additional stop doesn’t have to be weighted against its impact on the travel time of people who travel much longer distances. The Kingston corridor will only become a real growth corridor if the cities along it receive adequate links between each other...

With VIA potentially offering anemic service along the Lakeshore once the T-O-M service moves further north, it begs the question: Is VIA really the right group to run the local service?

Personally, I think it would make more sense for the Province to run that service, and a couple of other routes too. Most notably:

• Toronto-Kingston local
• Ottawa-Kingston local
• Toronto-London local
• Toronto-Niagara Falls (in essence replacing the GO service)
• Toronto-North Bay

This would in essence tier rail service in Ontario. GTHA commuter services would be run by GO, local intercity trips would be run by the Province, and express intercity trips would be run by VIA.

Nobody is stopping Ontario to assume the responsibility for these (except for North Bay) currently federally-funded services, but I’m not sure how popular this would be among its voters and taxpayers...

 

[Urban Sky]

.I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on the overly optimistic plans which didn't have enough $ attached to them. But to come and make such clearly false claims about what's going to happen to Kingston services, demonstrates that you are completely full of shill - and simply makes everything you've ever said here very questionable.

Reported as personal attack on myself.

Please let me know when you are willing to return to a civilized and respectful debate. I know it’s hot outside, but that is no excuse for forgetting that we are all humans here, contributing in our leisure time to a community which is dedicated to our area of special personal interest.

Thank you!

 

[Garuda]

With VIA potentially offering anemic service along the Lakeshore once the T-O-M service moves further north, it begs the question: Is VIA really the right group to run the local service?

Personally, I think it would make more sense for the Province to run that service, and a couple of other routes too. Most notably:

• Toronto-Kingston local
• Ottawa-Kingston local
• Toronto-London local
• Toronto-Niagara Falls (in essence replacing the GO service)
• Toronto-North Bay

This would in essence tier rail service in Ontario. GTHA commuter services would be run by GO, local intercity trips would be run by the Province, and express intercity trips would be run by VIA.

NSW Tranlink in Australia is a good model to follow if a intra provincal transit system is created. They cover the entire state with a bus train feeder system. Similar to what Ontario Northland does but with emphasis on rail. I like to think that there's a alternate reality in which Ontario didn't mass abandon rail lines maintained a similar system to this.

The answer from me is, no, VIA should not be operating a local service. Once all the seats are sold out in a train, there is no standing room. A local service needs to have that capacity. But unless the provincal does a mass buying of active rail lines and converted rail trails for reuse, it won't happen.

When I was in Australia, I took the train west from Sydney to Parkes which is similar in distance from Toronto to North Bay . There should be a bare bones commuter train running between Toronto and North Bay destinations year round. With extra service during the summer. Now that will only happen with at least double track and provincially owned infrastructure. Once there is all day service to Barrie, feeder bus service will help spur rail growth.

 

[MisterF]

Your contributions are always welcome here, Urban Sky.

NSW Tranlink in Australia is a good model to follow if a intra provincal transit system is created. They cover the entire state with a bus train feeder system. Similar to what Ontario Northland does but with emphasis on rail. I like to think that there's a alternate reality in which Ontario didn't mass abandon rail lines maintained a similar system to this.

The answer from me is, no, VIA should not be operating a local service. Once all the seats are sold out in a train, there is no standing room. A local service needs to have that capacity. But unless the provincal does a mass buying of active rail lines and converted rail trails for reuse, it won't happen.

When I was in Australia, I took the train west from Sydney to Parkes which is similar in distance from Toronto to North Bay . There should be a bare bones commuter train running between Toronto and North Bay destinations year round. With extra service during the summer. Now that will only happen with at least double track and provincially owned infrastructure. Once there is all day service to Barrie, feeder bus service will help spur rail growth.

Australia is a great example of how a low density, car-addicted country can still have a great rail system. Our Windsor-Quebec corridor is significantly more compact and densely populated than southeast Australia. That being said, there's one thing that will ensure that we'll never replicate their rail system: we've built a massive 4 lane expressway network all over the country while Australia has only built expressways in their most populated regions. Australia has no equivalent of the 400 to Sudbury or highway 11 to Prince Albert. For the Sydney to Parkes comparison you mentioned, the 4 lane highway barely gets beyond the outskirts of Sydney. Three quarters of the drive to Parkes is on two lane roads with no shoulders. The drive from Toronto to North Bay, by contrast, is entirely by 4 lane divided highway. Our highway system makes it hard for rail to compete in a lot of potential corridors. That's not to say that we don't have lots of opportunities to vastly improve our rail network though, and Via's HFR system is one of them.

One thing we do better than Australia is intercity rail, at least in the Corridor. Their trains between Sydney and Melbourne are slow and infrequent, which might be unavoidable given how far apart they are and how little there is between them.

 

[nfitz]

Reported as personal attack on myself.

I don't see that as a personal attack, given you've previously reported being paid to work on this project. But it could have been better phrased, and in the interest of harmony, I've rephrased it.

Apples and oranges:

Apples and apples.

• Toronto-Kitchener is a 101 km long regional corridor served by GO trains since December 2011 (and addition to GO buses)

• Until relatively recently, all trains carried through until Stratford, and before that St. Marys. All current VIA trains go to London. At points trains have gone all the way to Sarnia, and even Chicago. Apples not oranges.

• Toronto-Niagara is a 132 km long regional corridor served by GO buses now and in the near future by GO trains

• Because VIA dwindled service down to nothing.

• Montreal-Quebec is a 272 km long intercity corridor which never had passenger rail service other than by VIA, CP, CN or its pre-cedessors

• If VIA isn't prepared to serve the 290 km corridor from Toronto to Sarnia through London and Kitchener, then they shouldn't be serving the Montreal to Quebec corridor. It should be left to the Quebec government.

Nobody is stopping Ontario to assume the responsibility for these (except for North Bay) currently federally-funded services, but I’m not sure how popular this would be among its voters and taxpayers...

Nothing is stopping Quebec improving service to Quebec City.

Via is proposing trashing Eastern Ontario services through Kingston - looking at the history of VIA and service cuts outside of the main intercity corridor, it's completely irresponsible and ethically questionable to claim there's going to be significant services left other the the almost 5-hour Montreal to Toronto service.

The project costs just can't be right. There's no way they are getting out of Toronto to Locust Hill without dropping at least a billion or two to rebuild and grade-separate that corridor. And that's just not in the clearly wrong engineering estimates.