VIA Rail

[MisterF]

The Corridor is the only one not running at a "loss".

Why is that?

How can we get the Canadian and the Ocean also not running at a "loss"

The same way we can get the Trans Canada Highway and other rural roads to not operate at a loss: we can't. There's nothing wrong with subsidizing long distance transportation infrastructure.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The same way we can get the Trans Canada Highway and other rural roads to not operate at a loss: we can't. There's nothing wrong with subsidizing long distance transportation infrastructure.

Nope, but we really can't pretend VIA is a normal business - saddle it with these money-losing responsibilities and tying its' hands in areas where it has the potential to do well (Windsor-Quebec City corridor). To expect that to end well is foolishness.

AoD

 

[crs1026]

The problem with the subsidy approach is that unless the subsidee has independence from the government providing the subsidy, it is not free to articulate what its business plan is and what the funding pros and cons might be. I would love to see VIA allowed to articulate what a change to 6x service to the Maritimes might be, what it would cost and what it could deliver. Instead, it has to tor the line and maintain the party line that the present subsidy is adequate and indeed generous. If you compare to a regulatory model - the various Hydro agencies are free to propose rate increases to the OEB. They may not get what they ask for, but the outcome is the result of a fact based third party process where much evidence is tabled and there are many intervenors and many arguments aired. Letting Ottawa decide how much subsidy VIA gets is Dickensian.

- Paul

 

[robmausser]

notice how after 1977 and the turbo train there were no "Canadian" milestones worth noting..... pretty much says it all in terms of national
interest where canadian passenger rail peaked and waned...
essentially they had to scrape up other nations' milestones to make the timeline look more complete.... wifi on trains....WOOOOOOOW.............

Thats partly due to crappy writing:

"and replaced by LRC (light, rapid, comfortable) trains"

Ok, then mention the LRC as its own milestone!

 

[nfitz]

How can we get the Canadian and the Ocean also not running at a "loss"

Make air travel illegal? Add $10,000 per flight surcharge. Increase the population of the 2 middle provinces (Saskatchewan to Manitoba), which only totals 2.4 million compared to 9.3 million just near Toronto (GGH - compared to 7.2 in the GTHA - which means that these provinces are similar to the outer suburbs/cities like Kitchener, St. Catharines, Barrie, Peterborough - which are now commuting distance to the Toronto.

And then, despite such a low population density, they seem very crowded compared to Northern Ontario, which has only 800,000 people but is larger than either province, with no major cities. Which perhaps doesn't really drive home, that it's about 2,200 kilometres to get through Northern Ontario (biggest city is Sioux Lookout, population 5,300) compared to about 1,200 km to get through Manitoba

Perhaps the best option to improve finances on it, is to terminate it in Winnipeg. Which makes the trip under 2 days, compared to the 36 hours or so it takes from Toronto to Winnipeg.

 

[cplchanb]

Make air travel illegal? Add $10,000 per flight surcharge. Increase the population of the 2 middle provinces (Saskatchewan to Manitoba), which only totals 2.4 million compared to 9.3 million just near Toronto (GGH - compared to 7.2 in the GTHA - which means that these provinces are similar to the outer suburbs/cities like Kitchener, St. Catharines, Barrie, Peterborough - which are now commuting distance to the Toronto.

And then, despite such a low population density, they seem very crowded compared to Northern Ontario, which has only 800,000 people but is larger than either province, with no major cities. Which perhaps doesn't really drive home, that it's about 2,200 kilometres to get through Northern Ontario (biggest city is Sioux Lookout, population 5,300) compared to about 1,200 km to get through Manitoba

Perhaps the best option to improve finances on it, is to terminate it in Winnipeg. Which makes the trip under 2 days, compared to the 36 hours or so it takes from Toronto to Winnipeg.

they could split the service and have east and west meet at winnipeg.

 

[micheal_can]

Make air travel illegal? Add $10,000 per flight surcharge. Increase the population of the 2 middle provinces (Saskatchewan to Manitoba), which only totals 2.4 million compared to 9.3 million just near Toronto (GGH - compared to 7.2 in the GTHA - which means that these provinces are similar to the outer suburbs/cities like Kitchener, St. Catharines, Barrie, Peterborough - which are now commuting distance to the Toronto.

And then, despite such a low population density, they seem very crowded compared to Northern Ontario, which has only 800,000 people but is larger than either province, with no major cities. Which perhaps doesn't really drive home, that it's about 2,200 kilometres to get through Northern Ontario (biggest city is Sioux Lookout, population 5,300) compared to about 1,200 km to get through Manitoba

Perhaps the best option to improve finances on it, is to terminate it in Winnipeg. Which makes the trip under 2 days, compared to the 36 hours or so it takes from Toronto to Winnipeg.

The current route skims past Sudbury and then is in the bush till Winnipeg. They really should reroute it to Sault St Marie and Thunder Bay. Then they might capture more Northern Ontario traffic.

As far as making Winnipeg the terminal, having a separate line Toronto - Sudbury -Sault St Marie - Thunder Bay - Winnipeg would make it busy. Then the Vancouver - Edmonton - Saskatoon - Winnipeg line could mean the 2 sections have better on time performance. Another route, Vancouver - Calgary - Regina - Winnipeg could also be added.

Ah, it' will just remain a dream that Via services more than just Toronto , and the middle of.... nowhere.

 

[dowlingm]

Rerouting via the CPR White River-Thunder Bay route is one thing but the Sault (for Canadian) is just wandering

 

[micheal_can]

Rerouting via the CPR White River-Thunder Bay route is one thing but the Sault (for Canadian) is just wandering

Why? The tracks and other connections do still exist.

 

[nfitz]

Why? The tracks and other connections do still exist.

The original CP Canadian was Montreal-Ottawa-Petawawa-North Bay-Sudbury (where the train from Toronto joined after going through Newmarket, Barrie, Orillia, Parry Sound)-Chapleau-White River-Thunder Bay-Dryden-Kenora-Winnipeg-Regina-Calgary-Banf-Kamloops-Vancouver. It was mostly cut (except White River - Sudbury, which still runs).

For the most part, the current "Canadian" is the further north CN service (Saskatoon, Edmonton, Jasper), which misses pretty much everything between Toronto and Winnipeg, except for Parry Sound. It takes skill to miss Orillia and Barrie - but VIA pulled it off.

I'm not sure what service Sault St. Marie had historically. The Algoma Central did used to run a train 3-times a week from the Sault to Hearst, which intersected both the CN and CP - though you'd spend almost a day waiting for your connection; but after CN purchased it - well you know what happens next; service finally stopped in 2015.

 

[crs1026]

I'm not sure what service Sault St. Marie had historically. The Algoma Central did used to run a train 3-times a week from the Sault to Hearst, which intersected both the CN and CP - though you'd spend almost a day waiting for your connection; but after CN purchased it - well you know what happens next; service finally stopped in 2015.

Daily service SSM-Sudbury until around 1971. Connected with the CP Canadian, which meant unsociable timings at the SSM end. Not hard to understand how that drove passengers away. Pre-67, the train connected with the Dominion, so it was an overnight trip to Toronto.

Sudbury-SSM-Franz or even Sudbury-SSM-Oba on the existing route has its marketing attractions for the Canadian as a land cruise, in terms of adding Agawa Canyon scenery, but the mileage is greater and the timings are iffy even at today's relaxed schedule. Serving the folks en route is just not a good business strategy for a long distance tour train. It's interesting for the tourists to witness, but you won't get many people wanting to go from Hawk Jct to Saskatoon. The "interior" market is just to get people to an all season road, or down to SSM.

I would be a lot more passionate about a daytime SSM-Toronto train, on the premise that the population en route and the road/air competion is similar to Timmins-Toronto and so any arguments for bringing back the Northlander are just as compelling on this route also. I'm afraid the days of people actually using the Canadian to cross the country are over (though I miss them greatly).

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

Daily service SSM-Sudbury until around 1971. Connected with the CP Canadian, which meant unsociable timings at the SSM end. Not hard to understand how that drove passengers away. Pre-67, the train connected with the Dominion, so it was an overnight trip to Toronto.

Sudbury-SSM-Franz or even Sudbury-SSM-Oba on the existing route has its marketing attractions for the Canadian as a land cruise, in terms of adding Agawa Canyon scenery, but the mileage is greater and the timings are iffy even at today's relaxed schedule. Serving the folks en route is just not a good business strategy for a long distance tour train. It's interesting for the tourists to witness, but you won't get many people wanting to go from Hawk Jct to Saskatoon. The "interior" market is just to get people to an all season road, or down to SSM.

I would be a lot more passionate about a daytime SSM-Toronto train, on the premise that the population en route and the road/air competion is similar to Timmins-Toronto and so any arguments for bringing back the Northlander are just as compelling on this route also. I'm afraid the days of people actually using the Canadian to cross the country are over (though I miss them greatly).

- Paul

The rail companies have killed it off.

3 times a week, and you can be more than 12 hours late? Just imagine if your plane was like that.

 

[dowlingm]

An Ottawa-Petawawa-North Bay-Sudbury-Sault train would be an interesting crossconnect service for Ontario to run, if they hadn't stood by and watched the tracks between Mattawa and the Capital Region be abandoned. I just don't see the utility in diverting Toronto-Winnipeg services that way.

 

[nfitz]

There wasn't the ridership when they killed most of that in the 1980s. Why would it be much different now?

 

[Urban Sky]

It takes skill to miss Orillia and Barrie - but VIA pulled it off.

The Canadian did serve Orillia and Barrie until 1996:

Source: VIA Rail official timetable (effective 1996-04-28, p.38)

In case you want to educate yourself why the routing had to be changed:

Decision No. 646-R-1995
September 21, 1995

September 21, 1995

APPLICATION by the Canadian National Railway Company pursuant to section 160 of the National Transportation Act, 1987, R.S.C., 1985, c. 28 (3rd Supp.) for authority to abandon the operation of the Newmarket Subdivision from Barrie (mileage 63.0) to Longford (mileage 93.0), a total distance of 30 miles, in the province of Ontario.

File No. T 6115/564

[...]

CN

[...]

VIA Rail Canada Inc. (hereinafter VIA Rail) operates a passenger service three days a week in each direction over the branch line to serve the community of Orillia. CN indicated that its Bala Subdivision also extends through the area of the proposed abandonment and that VIA Rail would have the option of operating its passenger service over the Bala Subdivision.

[...]

CN also filed two letters of support with its application. Both the City of Orillia and Uniplast Industries Inc. are not opposed to the proposed abandonment on the understanding that should the Agency authorize the abandonment, CN would leave the tracks in place on the Newmarket Subdivision from Orillia (mileage 84.4) to Longford (mileage 93.0), as well as on the segment of the Midland Subdivision located in Orillia from mileage 42.54 and mileage 45.44, until March 31, 1997, and cease providing freight service over the branch line from the effective date of abandonment. The City of Orillia also indicated that it was prepared to sign road crossing maintenance agreements with respect to the crossings located on the branch line and stated that all automatic crossing protection devices would be decommissioned at CN's expense.

With respect to the environmental effects of this project, CN submitted that there are no foreseen adverse effects as only one carload of freight has originated or terminated on the branch line for a number of years and the passenger service of VIA Rail can be operated on the adjacent Bala Subdivision, which runs from Toronto to Washago.

[...]

CONCLUSION
After consideration of all of the material received and on file, the Agency, pursuant to sections 164 and 165 of the NTA, 1987, determines that the branch line is uneconomic and that there is no reasonable probability of it becoming economic in the foreseeable future. Accordingly, the operation of the branch line must be ordered abandoned.

Section 168 of the NTA, 1987 provides that the Agency shall fix a date for the abandonment of the operation of a branch line that is not less than (30) days or more than one (1) year from the date of the abandonment order.

As VIA Rail operates a passenger service over the branch line, the Agency determines that the operation of the branch line shall be abandoned one (1) year from the date of the Order giving effect to this Decision.

Source: Canadian Transportation Agency

Not exactly sure why you seem to blame VIA for ceasing to operate trains over tracks when they were removed by the host railroad and with the approval of the governments and cities concerned (to compare: Ontario Northland had already rerouted its Northlander in 1992 onto the Bala Sub), but I assume you have your reasons for your rant...