Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[W. K. Lis]

Vancouver's rail system is frankly better than the TTC Subway. Higher frequencies, and still plenty of capacity.



It doesn't because it is not so simple as measuring the floor space of the train, the TTC refuses to put longitudinal seating in its trains which alone shrinks the gap to 20%. Of course we could operate the Yonge Subway super frequently too, lots of "ifs", but we've seen over the decades that those are almost never fulfilled in this city.

Part of the problem is this attitude of "we need a relief line" every time anything gets built, what if we just served the popular markets, ran the GO Trains more frequently and fixed the seating layout on the subway.

Longitudinal seating is disliked by most actual transit users. Toronto's subway cars are wider than most other prior subway or metro cars of the time (1950's designs). This allows for the transverse seats, which most riders like.

Most people hate to take a middle seat, especially between two strangers. With longitudinal seats, there are more chances of having to sit between strangers.

 

[NY99]

Longitudinal seating is disliked by most actual transit users.

do you have a source for this? I’ve heard this claim thrown around a lot but haven’t seen a single thing backing it up.

 

[nfitz]

Vancouver's rail system is frankly better than the TTC Subway. Higher frequencies, and still plenty of capacity.

I mostly use the Canada Line in Vancouver. It seemed neither a higher frequency nor plenty of capacity mid-day. Standing room only at mid-day isn't what you expect on the TTC. And the waits seemed longer as well.

do you have a source for this? I’ve heard this claim thrown around a lot but haven’t seen a single thing backing it up.

That was the result of the survey in Vancouver for the new Mark III rolling stock, that has resulted in them sticking mostly with that type of seating, and less of the unpopular perimeter seating.

TransLink finds public support for interior design upgrades in new SkyTrain cars | Urbanized

TransLink says it has found significant public support for a number of interior design and layout changes to the next fleet of new SkyTrain cars.

dailyhive.com

 

[W. K. Lis]

do you have a source for this? I’ve heard this claim thrown around a lot but haven’t seen a single thing backing it up.

Where were you during January, 2020? The talk on social media was about seat preference.

See link.

A quick read of comments reveals how torn riders are. Some gravitate toward a window seat to avoid eye-contact. Others prefer to rest their heads on the panel of a three-seater. Most avoid the dreaded middle seat.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1213852020114886656

From link.

Researchers from the Transportation Research Board (TRB) recommend designing a subway car with vertical poles in the middle to maximize that premium near-the-door space for short-trip passengers, and transverse seating at the ends of the cars for long-distance riders. There would also be some seats along the walls near the doors separated by poles and partitions.

That design is the result of a study conducted during the winter of 2011-2012, in which researchers rode the New York City subway system and recorded where passengers stood or sat, for how long and how close they got to their fellow passengers. The study was conducted outside of rush hour, the authors noted, because "riders in overcrowded cars have virtually no choice in seating."

The TRB's most general findings won't surprise anyone: Subway riders don't like to be close to one another, and would rather stand than squeeze into the last available seat. In fact, a train has to be at 120 percent of its capacity for 90 percent of its seats to be in use.

A traditional New York City subway car layout, which crowds passengers near doors and wastes usable seating spaceA traditional New York City subway car layout, which crowds passengers near doors and wastes usable seating space.

On short routes, passengers don't care whether transverse (airline-style) seats face towards or away from the direction of travel. But on longer, higher-speed commuter rail lines, passengers prefer seats facing the direction of travel — but they still would rather take a backwards-facing aisle or window seat than a front-facing middle seat.

In fact, all transit passengers will do anything to avoid a middle seat, choosing seats that abut partitions or poles rather than a fellow passenger. That's why the researchers recommend putting poles and partitions in the middle of seat pairs rather than at the ends, to minimize the number of "middle" seats and maximize seating utilization.

Broken down by gender, women slightly prefer standing to sitting when a train is relatively empty. However, as seats start becoming prime real estate, more women find seats than men. Children never have trouble finding a seat. Study authors say that women prefer to avoid deserted cars for personal safety concerns, but can find seats "probably because New York's gentlemen do live up to cultural expectations regarding giving up seats to ladies and children." Nice work, guys.

A recommended layout, with "airline style" seats at the ends of the car, asymmetrical door openings, and no "middle seats"

 

[ARG1]

I mostly use the Canada Line in Vancouver. It seemed neither a higher frequency nor plenty of capacity mid-day. Standing room only at mid-day isn't what you expect on the TTC. And the waits seemed longer as well.

That was the result of the survey in Vancouver for the new Mark III rolling stock, that has resulted in them sticking mostly with that type of seating, and less of the unpopular perimeter seating.

TransLink finds public support for interior design upgrades in new SkyTrain cars | Urbanized

TransLink says it has found significant public support for a number of interior design and layout changes to the next fleet of new SkyTrain cars.

dailyhive.com

Canada Line waits are currently at every 3 minutes on the core section (same as the subway right now), and afaik this is simply due to the lack of trains available. The current setup allows trains to eventually run every 90 seconds, and for the trains to be expanded with an additional segment in the middle expanding the train length to 50m. As it stands right now, the Canada Line actually operates at 40% of its theoretical maximum capacity, and that's if we ignore the possibilities of massive train overhangs.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Canada Line waits are currently at every 3 minutes on the core section (same as the subway right now), and afaik this is simply due to the lack of trains available. The current setup allows trains to eventually run every 90 seconds, and for the trains to be expanded with an additional segment in the middle expanding the train length to 50m. As it stands right now, the Canada Line actually operates at 40% of its theoretical maximum capacity, and that's if we ignore the possibilities of massive train overhangs.

The biggest weakness on the Canada Line mid term by my understanding is that the long stretch of single track at the south end means that maximum frequency service has to be split basically 50/50 between Richmond and the Airport, with considerably more demand on the Richmond side. Mind you, I've seen back of the napkin concepts for fixing this with a one way loop including 1-2 additional stations, which certainly isn't an unreasonably expensive fix, and one that's quite a bit more reasonable than extending the underground platforms.

 

[M II A II R II K]

One of its strengths is that the Canada Line carries more people than Lakeshore East.

 

[drum118]

One of its strengths is that the Canada Line carries more people than Lakeshore East.

Anything can carries more than any GO Line. Regardless of that, everything services different markets and meet different needs.

 

[nfitz]

Canada Line waits are currently at every 3 minutes on the core section (same as the subway right now), and afaik this is simply due to the lack of trains available.

That's at peak though, I mentioned off-peak, which can be as long as every 10 minutes, even on the core section - and that's not constrained by number of trains. Which means every 20 minutes on the branches.

One of its strengths is that the Canada Line carries more people than Lakeshore East.

The King streetcar carries more people than Lakeshore East. So did the Sheppard subway and the 99-B line at one point too - not sure how much Lakeshore East has picked up with the increased service though.

 

[ARG1]

That's at peak though, I mentioned off-peak, which can be as long as every 10 minutes, even on the core section - and that's not constrained by number of trains. Which means every 20 minutes on the branches.

Its currently 10pm in Vancouver as I'm typing this and the frequencies are every 6 minutes in the core section. Not absolutely ideal, but still fairly reasonable.

 

[drum118]

Its currently 10pm in Vancouver as I'm typing this and the frequencies are every 6 minutes in the core section. Not absolutely ideal, but still fairly reasonable.

Be happy with the 6 minutes as there are number of systems in the US that offer before COVID-19 10-20 minute service that have higher population than Vancouver. The same applies to Europe. That is also what TTC offer and they carry more than your system.

 

[Allandale25]

Metrolinx Press Room

Find the latest Metrolinx news, project updates and more.

blog.metrolinx.com

 

[EnviroTO]

Metrolinx Press Room

Find the latest Metrolinx news, project updates and more.

blog.metrolinx.com

One important factor that will help the extension keep a low profile is the underground tunnels below residential areas are proposed to be built at a depth where there would be no direct impact on the homes above using the latest, state-of-the-art tunnel boring machines that will carefully eat their way through soil and rock.

Wow, they should use this technique on the Ontario line!!

 

[drum118]

Isn't this an argument for no new subways outside the core? Yonge North?

Yes it is as the ridership not there and has never been there from day one. All you are doing is removing cars currently going to Finch by having them going to RHC. I supposed the extension to Steeles with 2 stations for it as it should happen 2 decades ago.

It removes a lot of dead heading by everyone with the plan Steeles station bus terminal and removes a few buses from the routes well still keeping the same headway. You can set the Steeles stations up to have a pay area for GO and YRT

 

[afransen]

Interesting perspective!

To say the ridership will never be there to support it seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Mediocre transit service fails to convert car drivers, so we don't put anything better in. There is another school of thought that the area you can reach within a 45 or 60 minute travel envelope is actually an important metric for improving economic opportunity and dynamism. Much of the city is a long bus ride to a rail station (subway/GO). That means your options are take transit to a local low-wage service industry job, or take the car to a higher paying job further away.