Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[steveintoronto]

...As the article notes:
-TO council wants the DRL "in operation" before Yonge proceeds, which would put it about 20 years out
-YR agreed the projects should proceed "in lockstep"
-Scarpitti is now saying he wants the YNSE to go first.

As I've said before (and above, in response to the "What if it was open today?" hypothetical), I think Scarpitti has a point. I don't think that the system would be unduly overwhelmed on Day 1 by the extension and so it would be safe to do it first as long as the DRL was chugging along right behind it, even under construction at the same time if possible. But it would trigger massive development in short order so to do it without an absolute guarantee of DRL opening soon after isn't something I'd support.

This is going to be simmering in the background for a while and come to a boil once we find out what the PCs intend to do about uploading because then all bets could be off.

Agreed on 'uploading' or not. At some point, this regime is going to have to walk the walk. That being said, the 'northern leg' is already totally in the hands of Metrolinx, and the southern leg is the City's in planning only. There's no funding other than for the study.

hw621 said: ↑

^RER/SmartTrack is still happening?

There are zero signs of a desire by government to either slow this project down or make significant changes in the implementation.

Let's flip this over: What 'signs' (actual quotes) that they are going to proceed as stated by the previous regime?

I've been watching this closely, and a fair number of posters are still 'optimistic' on this. I see no definitive statements that could buttress that. And ditto on some of Wynne's statements too. Let me count the ways...AD2W for K/W, electrification, RER, Milton, etc...

Present regime have plugged some holes in the Lakeshore GO train service. Whether any but a fraction of it is successful remains to be seen. It might cause as much operational dysfunction as help.

Beyond that, what else is to significantly change?

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

In theory, RER could get re-branded or priorities could get shifted but my sense is that it's pretty safe. As safe as any government program is these days, anyway. If they were doing any serious chin-scratching about it, they could easily have put it on hold in the meantime but it's been going full steam ahead, I think.

And if anyone wants to see the "Toronto annoyance" at York Region's pushing for the subway, just look at the Twitter response to the Star article.

 

[steveintoronto]

In theory, RER could get re-branded or priorities could get shifted but my sense is that it's pretty safe. As safe as any government program is these days, anyway. If they were doing any serious chin-scratching about it, they could easily have put it on hold in the meantime but it's been going full steam ahead, I think.

And if anyone wants to see the "Toronto annoyance" at York Region's pushing for the subway, just look at the Twitter response to the Star article.

I'm not a twitterati so don't know where to check for the tweets. Post a link and I can follow them. Again, if QP is going to be uploading the subway, then all bets are off on many aspects.

As for RER, other than the Lakeshore Line, I can find nothing since the election on the matter. Lots before, none after.

So if I'm mistaken, please link or reference something in writing other than disposable words.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I'm not a twitterati so don't know where to check for the tweets. Post a link and I can follow them. Again, if QP is going to be uploading the subway, then all bets are off on many aspects.

This gives you a good sense, I think...
https://twitter.com/BenSpurr/status/1048218083654086656

As for RER, other than the Lakeshore Line, I can find nothing since the election on the matter. Lots before, none after.
So if I'm mistaken, please link or reference something in writing other than disposable words.

All I can say is that second-hand info I've heard from people working on it is that they haven't heard anything negative and no news is kind of good news. It's no guarantee, but it's not the sex-ed curriculum, carbon tax or labour reform act either...

 

[Leo_Chan]

I'm not a twitterati so don't know where to check for the tweets. Post a link and I can follow them. Again, if QP is going to be uploading the subway, then all bets are off on many aspects.

As for RER, other than the Lakeshore Line, I can find nothing since the election on the matter. Lots before, none after.

So if I'm mistaken, please link or reference something in writing other than disposable words.

This gives you a good sense, I think...
https://twitter.com/BenSpurr/status/1048218083654086656



All I can say is that second-hand info I've heard from people working on it is that they haven't heard anything negative and no news is kind of good news. It's no guarantee, but it's not the sex-ed curriculum, carbon tax or labour reform act either...

This one’s good too:
https://twitter.com/joshmatlow/status/1048042770319867904?s=21

 

[steveintoronto]

This gives you a good sense, I think...
https://twitter.com/BenSpurr/status/1048218083654086656

Thanks for that, Googling for twitter links needs a vital tag to find what's relevant.

All I can say is that second-hand info I've heard from people working on it is that they haven't heard anything negative and no news is kind of good news. It's no guarantee, but it's not the sex-ed curriculum, carbon tax or labour reform act either...

Fair enough. We're going on the same info, as that's all there is. I fear clouds, you hope for sunshine. Same thing, but the hope factor expresses differently.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

This one’s good too:
https://twitter.com/joshmatlow/status/1048042770319867904?s=21

Ha - indeed. LUNACY!!!
I really think the fatal misunderstanding with all this is that people are ALREADY getting on from York Region at Finch Station and MORE of them will continue to do so. Any discussion of what to do has to start with that fundamental understanding and assumption, IMHO.

Yeah, you need the DRL but short of checking passports at Finch you can't actually solve the problem by not extending. As I said above, all you can do is stick your fingers in the dike and try to hold it back until we begin the start to commence to think about going ahead with the process of investigating the prospects of catching up with our very lacking transit infrastructure.

 

[steveintoronto]

This one’s good too:
https://twitter.com/joshmatlow/status/1048042770319867904?s=21

Thanks for that, some interesting points, but I get infuriated by ones like this:

V _escu‏@yyz_otp 11h11 hours ago
There are numerous subway systems that extend outside the city proper. Paris, Madrid, London, Shanghai are some examples.

OMG! They also have massive and highly proficient heavy rail systems, London on the verge of opening Crossrail, which will run more frequently through the core section than Toronto subways do, with 1500 person mainline trains in tunnel. Similar for the other cities.

*No-one* in their right mind services regions by subway! It happened in the past due to existing heavy rail RoWs being converted to electric traction. None of them were new-builds for RoW. And Paris is expanding the Metro again, within City Limits. They have two other layers of rail (three actually if you include TGV) to serve outlying areas, RER being one.

Toronto is brainwashed with the concept of 'subways, subways, subways'. No wonder the likes of the you know who get elected.

Addendum: The tweet that I posted above corrected the record somewhat by posting:

V _escu‏@yyz_otp 11h11 hours ago
Replying to @JoshMatlow
The Delhi Metro opened in 2002 and now has approximately 200 stations. Guangzhou Metro opened in 1997 and has some 13 lines and 230 stations.....Meanwhile 'world class' Toronto can't simultaneously build a downtown relief line and 5 station extension north by 2031.

Now that makes excellent sense.

And yes "Metro"...heavy rail overhead electric catenary that in many if not most cases, also runs out onto mainline rail.

A number of world leading cities also share track with LRVs onto mainline rail too, but I digress. Metro is the way to go, albeit in this sense of the word:
https://www.google.ca/search?q=metr...85j0j7&client=ubuntu&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

[innsertnamehere]

I don't think anyone wants the DRL open beforehand construction even begins on the Yonge extension - simply that it's open before the Yonge extension is to handle the increased demand.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

*No-one* in their right mind services regions by subway! It happened in the past due to existing heavy rail RoWs being converted to electric traction. None of them were new-builds for RoW. And Paris is expanding the Metro again, within City Limits. They have two other layers of rail (three actually if you include TGV) to serve outlying areas, RER being one.

this is true, but geopolitical boundaries are less significant than actual distance. I'd say Highway 7 is still win subway range; it's far closer to the urban envelope than Finch was when they built up to there.

Just because Richmond Hill is literally in YORK REGION doesn't mean that REGIONAL rail is what's needed to provide transportation to its residents.

Toronto is brainwashed with the concept of 'subways, subways, subways'. No wonder the likes of the you know who get elected.

This much is true. An unfortunate side effect is an inability to have real debates about what modes work where. The debate about Scarborough, for example, shouldn't be the debate about Yonge. The premier talking about subways to Markham and Pickering in the same sentence debases both.The "good news" about that Matlow thread is that shows people fundamentally understand there is bona fide massive demand for subway ridership north of Finch. That this has hilighted the need for the DRL is ultimately a good thing, though Toronto's inability to commit to and properly prioritize infrastructure has been frustrating.

The other side effect, ever since Rob Ford got elected, is a misunderstanding/demonization of LRT which one can only hope is remedied by the opening of the Crosstown.

 

[steveintoronto]

this is true, but geopolitical boundaries are less significant than actual distance. I'd say Highway 7 is still win subway range; it's far closer to the urban envelope than Finch was when they built up to there.

Just because Richmond Hill is literally in YORK REGION doesn't mean that REGIONAL rail is what's needed to provide transportation to its residents.

This is two separate issues though. If York Region wants to build a subway to serve locally, fine. If they want to feed passengers to downtown Toronto, then they'll have to add tracks to the Yonge Line. And Torontonians shouldn't have to pay for that.

Upload the subway(s) and then the debate takes on a completely different tone, save for Torontonians already being denied the use of what they paid for.

This debate had a telling moment when Tory wanted to toll the DVP, and Wynne said no. It's not going to get any better under the aegis of the Northern hordes and the Ford regime.

How about York Region dumping their new trunk sewer into Toronto's? In the event, wisely, it went down to the Lake along it's own separate course, sharing costs with Durham. And the Province.

 

[nfitz]

Traditionally this area is considered Thornhill rather than Markham. Today when people talk about Markham they usually refer to the area around Markham Civic Centre and Unionville, where most of the new developments concentrate.

I always thought it was a bit odd that Thornill was adsorbed part into Vaughan and part into Markham in 1971, but Richmond Hill was left alone.

50 year ago, Thornhill would have been well understood. Not sure it is today ...

Perhaps the good people of Toronto should help reduce the much higher property taxes in this part of 905, by pushing to amalgamate Vaughan, Richmond Hill, and Markham into one single-tier community. Even then, it would only have a population of about 825,000. But it would only need 9 councillors and mayor compared to the 31 it currently has! Then with a simple name, we'd have more awareness of where this area is.

 

[steveintoronto]

Even then, it would only have a population of about 825,000. But it would only need 9 councillors and mayor compared to the 31 it currently has! Then with a simple name, we'd have more awareness of where this area is.

Ouch!

 

[Leo_Chan]

I always thought it was a bit odd that Thornill was adsorbed part into Vaughan and part into Markham in 1971, but Richmond Hill was left alone.

50 year ago, Thornhill would have been well understood. Not sure it is today ...

Perhaps the good people of Toronto should help reduce the much higher property taxes in this part of 905, by pushing to amalgamate Vaughan, Richmond Hill, and Markham into one single-tier community. Even then, it would only have a population of about 825,000. But it would only need 9 councillors and mayor compared to the 31 it currently has! Then with a simple name, we'd have more awareness of where this area is.

I wish Richmond Hill bordered Toronto. It
It would simplify the souther municipal border(s) of Richmond Hill.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Is this actually what is happening?

Toronto resident: Let’s attract jobs to our city! (905er gets hired)

Also Toronto resident: Those damn 905ers are driving their cars in our city and using our roads! Toll them! (905er gets on subway)

Also Toronto resident: Those damn 905ers are using our subway and we can’t get a seat! (905er votes conservative because whining at everything)

Rinse, repeat.

From Reddit.