TTC: Yonge North Subway Extension (Finch-Richmond Hill) (Unfunded/Planned)

[Neutrino]

I dearly hope any extensions to TYSSE and a Yonge - TYSSE loop are elevated.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Even years ago Vaughan was pushing Mlinx to get Line 1 up to Vaughan Mills. They want this done relatively soon, and in my view it's within reason they'll bundle aspects of this grandeur as an 11th hour amendment to YNSE.

The nerve of these suburbs, planning for the future and stuff! How much happier we'd all be if Vaughan was still governing itself like it was 1986.
I can only imagine that this attitude is pretty much the exact reason the DRL got pushed off, decade after decade.

And I look forward to the day the subway is announced, when this silliness and fear-mongering will be proven wrong. Highway 7 is the Region's priority, unequivocally. In his billion interviews about the YNSE, I've never heard Scarpitti mention going north of 7, which they can justify because it's a transit hub and a UGC.

North of that is just something that would be nice, one day, which they've pencilled in on their maps.

The train storage will already be near 16th. Actually seems doubly likely seeing who's in power at the Prov level: a party with big support in YR that's vaguely pro-subway but yet hasn't shown just WTH their grand subway vision is. Food for thought.

Well, I do have to admit the Premier who suggests a subway to Pickering is rather a wild card.
Still, a long-term master plan is just that. It's pretty clear that YNSE and DRL are next in line and I'll bet dollars to donuts you won't hear "Major Mackenzie" at any point in the next few years. (And, FWIW, while I MIGHT support it going that far north eventually, it would be an utter absurdity for it to be discussed by anyone until the DRL, all the way up to Sheppard, is a going concern.)

Reasons like this I think an alternative that offers what YR wants (an inverted U subway through their territory)

I think it's less that they want an inverted U going through their territory that a complete loop going through the centre of the GTA? Matter of perspective maybe?

Just have a transfer at Finch or Steeles to another subway scaled more appropriately, either owned by the Prov, private consortium, or York Region. A 60s platform-platform transfer is a minor inconvenience that only marginally affects mode choice. Still an automated high capacity subway line, but nowhere near as crazy as shady bozos calling for almost 25km of deep tunneling and 150m long stations across the outer suburbs. Win-win.

They're not going to do above ground south of Steeles and they already determined through the EA that it made the most sense to cross the river at ground level and then you have to get past the highways, hydro corridor etc. so I'm not sure where you'd pop up south of Highway 7, really.

But, hey, you may even be right. Or it may be that by the time they get to building that the TPAP - which already made determinations on all these issues - will seem obsolete in the face of emerging hyperloop technology.
I suspect not, though.

 

[44 North]

Don't see the need to be weird or extreme. YR actually looked at a medium sized subway system for north of 7 and rejected it for a bus plan, something which I'm sure many here praised as sound planning. But now they flipped things for a 6-car subway extension. And they want it within 20yrs, which is pretty close. And afaik Scarpiti is deeply opposed to bus enhancements on Yonge, which were to be planned south of 7 if the subway was delayed by 10yrs (which it has). If you're complaining about bus bunching at rush hour leading to Finch, which you do, know where to point the finger.

I wouldn't envision any elevated through York Region with the exception of a bridge, though think on Jane north of 7 it would actually work really well since that type of area is optimized for it.

Believe it or not I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that an extension to Major Mack will become part of YNSE, at least as a major point of discussion. For the reasons mentioned. And Major Mack "the centre of the GTA"? Oh c'mon, nobody has that perspective.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

They're literally building the Yonge BRT now which should be encouraging to those who fear they'll try get YNSE further north than currently planned. It doesn't preclude a subway, I guess, but it sure doesn't help their case either. I mean, if they're so gung ho, they can convert to LRT in 5 years, I guess.

The bus bunching is an issue - I think I've said here there have been times where I'm around Yonge/Steeles and just standing there are doing a 360, I've seen a dozen or more buses between the north and south horizons. It made sense, at the time, to hold off on the BRT. Hindsight is 20/20 but 2007, man, those were heady days! If it gets approved in the next couple of years, therefore opening - yeesh - around 2030 - one can debate whether it was worth not building the BRT buuuuut I also suspect (per my first point) that if the BRT had been built from Steeles to 7 it would be even easier for some to argue they should just convert to LRT and take the subway to Steeles.
So they'd have less bus bunching today, but would have shot themselves in the foot for the long term.

When the first development proposal on the Vaughan side comes down the pipe at 14.3 FSI - 165+ stories of condos - I think it's easy to say that we'd be very quickly facing drastically inadequate infrastructure. You're going to need that subway by the time it's built; especially with the delay.

And to clarify - I didn't mean Major Mac was the centre of the GTA; rather the streets between Yonge and Jane. You were talking about YR wanting an inverted U of a subway within their territory. But if you zoom out, it would be a loop going up Yonge from Union to Major Mack and then down Jane/Allen/Spadina/University, circling the "centre of the GTA." Looking at the U outside of its larger context misses the point, IMHO. Obviously Major Mac, just below the Oak Ridges Moraine, would be the north end of contiguous urban development which is why, even at the very most extreme, no one should ever imagine a subway north of there.

(And we agree that tunneling north of VMC is nuts; LRT would work perfectly nice there; I'm assuming by "elevated" we mean "at grade"?. It would have been cheaper than tunneling north of Steeles but pretty useless in terms of promoting an "urban streetscape." There's at least some potential along Jane to the north...)

 

[micheal_can]

But nothing in YR's transit plans show that. In fact it's the exact opposite - they're banking on Yonge going well beyond Hwy 7 to Major Mack then possibly looping over to meet U/S. It's in their updated master plan. Even years ago Vaughan was pushing Mlinx to get Line 1 up to Vaughan Mills. They want this done relatively soon, and in my view it's within reason they'll bundle aspects of this grandeur as an 11th hour amendment to YNSE. The train storage will already be near 16th. Actually seems doubly likely seeing who's in power at the Prov level: a party with big support in YR that's vaguely pro-subway but yet hasn't shown just WTH their grand subway vision is. Food for thought.

Reasons like this I think an alternative that offers what YR wants (an inverted U subway through their territory), but one less insane. Just have a transfer at Finch or Steeles to another subway scaled more appropriately, either owned by the Prov, private consortium, or York Region. A 60s platform-platform transfer is a minor inconvenience that only marginally affects mode choice. Still an automated high capacity subway line, but nowhere near as crazy as shady bozos calling for almost 25km of deep tunneling and 150m long stations across the outer suburbs. Win-win.

I can see an extension to Vaughan Mills built. I can see the first phase of YNSE going to the RH station. More than that, not unless YRT pays for most of it.

 

[Bureaucromancer]

Agreed, I can definitely picture it going as far as Major Mac in the west (not that I support it, BRT with an eye to an eventual LRT through routed south should be plenty for Jane) as politically viable. On Yonge where north of 7 there really are better ooption for regional rail than exist in Vaughan it's going to be a much harder sell.

 

[44 North]

They're literally building the Yonge BRT now which should be encouraging to those who fear they'll try get YNSE further north than currently planned. It doesn't preclude a subway, I guess, but it sure doesn't help their case either. I mean, if they're so gung ho, they can convert to LRT in 5 years, I guess.

The bus bunching is an issue - I think I've said here there have been times where I'm around Yonge/Steeles and just standing there are doing a 360, I've seen a dozen or more buses between the north and south horizons. It made sense, at the time, to hold off on the BRT. Hindsight is 20/20 but 2007, man, those were heady days! If it gets approved in the next couple of years, therefore opening - yeesh - around 2030 - one can debate whether it was worth not building the BRT buuuuut I also suspect (per my first point) that if the BRT had been built from Steeles to 7 it would be even easier for some to argue they should just convert to LRT and take the subway to Steeles.

That's the thing tho, they're not planning on LRT. On Yonge north of 7 or anywhere, which is what my reply was to @micheal_can who thought otherwise. They want subways north of 7 on both ends, again no conversion to LRT.

South of 7 on Yonge there were no plans for lrt and barely plans for brt so it's a bit historically inaccurate to say there was. When I mentioned 'planning for bus enhancements' south of 7 on Yonge they'd merely be basic improvements. Were supposed to be in place more or less by now considering they were contingent on the subway extension's delay, which it is. Gripes on existing rush hour service through this stretch can fall largely at the feet of York Region, and likely Scarpiti.

(And we agree that tunneling north of VMC is nuts; LRT would work perfectly nice there; I'm assuming by "elevated" we mean "at grade"?. It would have been cheaper than tunneling north of Steeles but pretty useless in terms of promoting an "urban streetscape." There's at least some potential along Jane to the north...)

Why mention LRT since again no plan for one, vaughan has already made clear they don't want one by asking Mlinx for a subway, and YR's transit plan solidifies that the region wants lots of subways. Not 2-car subways, not narrow 4-car trains - 6-car conventional Toronto rolling stock. About 25km of it. My argument is this inverted U plan of theirs may not be so bad...just so long as it's not as an extension of Line 1. Plan one that's a bit more forward-thinking, grounded in reality, not grossly oversized, and doesn't belong to another city.

 

[Rainforest]

I want to ask whether Yonge Street will be widened to 6 lanes between Langstaff Road and Clark Avenue regardless of the subway being built? I’m not saying that this is a replacement for the subway, but HOV/bus lanes for local service.

That's unlikely; street widening would affect the Thornhill heritage area.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

If you live north of 7 take Viva or the GO Train.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I can see an extension to Vaughan Mills built. I can see the first phase of YNSE going to the RH station. More than that, not unless YRT pays for most of it.

This argument has always had some sway - why should Toronto pay for a subway to York Region? I'm not advocating for a subway to Vaughan Mills but the argument becomes meaningless if the province uploads the subway, like they say they will. Bye bye to all the "but it's OUR subway!" arguments, right or wrong.

South of 7 on Yonge there were no plans for lrt and barely plans for brt so it's a bit historically inaccurate to say there was.

this is 100%, entirely and completely false. Barely plans for BRT?? The first phase of Viva, before Highway 7, was supposed to be Steeles to 7, on Yonge, and Toronto was planning to do its own bus lanes from Steeles to Finch. And Viva was designed to be upgraded to LRT so, wrong, wrong and wrong.

For the record - here's Wikipedia noting Move2020 was announced on June 15, 2007.
Here's the minutes of York Region Council for June 21, 2007. Note Item 112, the Yonge rapidway expropriations, and specifically Meeting No. 5 of the York Region Rapid Transit Co., which took place on June 14.

Item #4:
Resolution adopted by the Council of the City of Vaughan at its meeting on June 11, 2007 in support of bus rapid transit on Yonge Street and the Yonge Street Subway Extension to the Richmond Hill (Langstaff) Centre. Received. (A copy of the Vaughan Council Resolution dated June 11, 2007 is attached to this report.)


Anyone who cares can read it all but feel free to explain how Vaughan can "Continue to support...approved Bus Rapid Transit" when you just said there were "barely plans" for it?!

So, on June 21, Council changed course:

1. The Recommendations of the Rapid Transit Public/Private Partnership Steering Committee be received.

2. Staff be directed to commence an Environmental Assessment and preliminary engineering for the Yonge Street subway extension to Richmond Hill Centre.

3. Staff be directed to work with the City of Toronto and TTC to develop an integrated and coordinated approach for the timely extension of the Subway.

4. Staff be authorized to retain necessary resources to undertake this work.

5. An interim budget of $3,000,000 through the end of 2007 be allocated from capital reserves to undertake this work.

6. Staff make every effort to recover these funds from province and federal partners.

7. Staff report back on progress on the work plan in the fall 2007, including work completed, future work initiatives and budget implications.

8. Staff continue the practice of taking land through the development review process at no cost in the Yonge Street corridor.

9. The Regional Chair and Clerk be authorized to execute the Provincial and Federal Funding Agreements to secure the Viva Phase 2 � Stage One monies.

10. Staff report back in the fall as to the timing and priority for all of the York Region rapid transit projects announced as part of the Move Ontario 2020 funding.

Clause 7, relating to Expropriation of Land, Yonge Street, City of Vaughan and Town of Markham, be deferred to the September 20, 2007 meeting of the Rapid Transit Public/Private Partnership Steering Committ

Lordy. Black and white.

When I mentioned 'planning for bus enhancements' south of 7 on Yonge they'd merely be basic improvements. Were supposed to be in place more or less by now considering they were contingent on the subway extension's delay, which it is. Gripes on existing rush hour service through this stretch can fall largely at the feet of York Region, and likely Scarpiti.

Riiiiight. I'll let others on the forum judge accordingly, whether you know what you're talking about here.
It's clear York Region held off on improvements, waiting on the subway. Whether they could have done something that made sense in terms of money or transportation, I don't know. But I don't think anyone thought it would drag on this long.

Why mention LRT since again no plan for one, vaughan has already made clear they don't want one by asking Mlinx for a subway, and YR's transit plan solidifies that the region wants lots of subways. Not 2-car subways, not narrow 4-car trains - 6-car conventional Toronto rolling stock.

Meh, by this time next year - for better or worse - it will be Ontario rolling stock and the legs will be cut out from what's left of this argument.

My argument is this inverted U plan of theirs may not be so bad...just so long as it's not as an extension of Line 1. Plan one that's a bit more forward-thinking, grounded in reality, not grossly oversized, and doesn't belong to another city.

Whatever. Line 1 is going to 7. North of that it's not, not for years anyway. Whether they change over the existing Viva to LRT or add bus lanes on Jane or whatever, there's no reason to think it'll be a subway just because YR drew a line on a map.

Anyway, any way you slice it we manage to agree - if nothing else - subway north of 7 doesn't make much sense. As for the rest of it...c'est la vie.

 

[44 North]

This argument has always had some sway - why should Toronto pay for a subway to York Region? I'm not advocating for a subway to Vaughan Mills but the argument becomes meaningless if the province uploads the subway, like they say they will. Bye bye to all the "but it's OUR subway!" arguments, right or wrong.




this is 100%, entirely and completely false. Barely plans for BRT?? The first phase of Viva, before Highway 7, was supposed to be Steeles to 7, on Yonge, and Toronto was planning to do its own bus lanes from Steeles to Finch. And Viva was designed to be upgraded to LRT so, wrong, wrong and wrong.

For the record - here's Wikipedia noting Move2020 was announced on June 15, 2007.
Here's the minutes of York Region Council for June 21, 2007. Note Item 112, the Yonge rapidway expropriations, and specifically Meeting No. 5 of the York Region Rapid Transit Co., which took place on June 14.

Item #4:
Resolution adopted by the Council of the City of Vaughan at its meeting on June 11, 2007 in support of bus rapid transit on Yonge Street and the Yonge Street Subway Extension to the Richmond Hill (Langstaff) Centre. Received. (A copy of the Vaughan Council Resolution dated June 11, 2007 is attached to this report.)


Anyone who cares can read it all but feel free to explain how Vaughan can "Continue to support...approved Bus Rapid Transit" when you just said there were "barely plans" for it?!

So, on June 21, Council changed course:

1. The Recommendations of the Rapid Transit Public/Private Partnership Steering Committee be received.

2. Staff be directed to commence an Environmental Assessment and preliminary engineering for the Yonge Street subway extension to Richmond Hill Centre.

3. Staff be directed to work with the City of Toronto and TTC to develop an integrated and coordinated approach for the timely extension of the Subway.

4. Staff be authorized to retain necessary resources to undertake this work.

5. An interim budget of $3,000,000 through the end of 2007 be allocated from capital reserves to undertake this work.

6. Staff make every effort to recover these funds from province and federal partners.

7. Staff report back on progress on the work plan in the fall 2007, including work completed, future work initiatives and budget implications.

8. Staff continue the practice of taking land through the development review process at no cost in the Yonge Street corridor.

9. The Regional Chair and Clerk be authorized to execute the Provincial and Federal Funding Agreements to secure the Viva Phase 2 � Stage One monies.

10. Staff report back in the fall as to the timing and priority for all of the York Region rapid transit projects announced as part of the Move Ontario 2020 funding.

Lordy.

And how would this BRT-turn-LRT have gotten through Thornhill, both technically and realistically (since no pols supported it). Exactly, it wouldn't have. At least not as BRT, and certainly not as LRT. Sleuthing wikipedia of all places to show that York Region planned to maybe spend the paltry sum of $3M doesn't in any way change my original post. Lordy indeed.

Meh, by this time next year it will be Ontario rolling stock and the legs will be cut out from what's left of your argument.

lol oh I knew it all along and called you out for this years ago. Hardcore Ford supporter. Continually insult TO for electing a Ford, but the moment the outer suburbs elect one he's viewed as some saviour. Because suuubwaaays. But this Ford is obviously better because he'll let you ride for free, and build you hagia sophia stations. Rude awakenings oftentimes follow head-in-the-cloud dreams.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

And how would this BRT-turn-LRT have gotten through Thornhill, both technically and realistically (since no pols supported it). Exactly, it wouldn't have.

You're borderline delusional.
It was an intrinsic part of Viva. They DID approve it. They finished the EA. They were - as I just demonstrated - literally set to start the construction work when the subway plan was announced. So it was supported by the majority of pols in Markham and Vaughan ad York Region, QED.
Did you even READ the stuff I posted? Here is Vaughan council EXPLICITLY endorsing the BRT, even with the subway announcement:

Checkmate. Again. Crikey, even I'm shocked you're unaware of this very recent history.
How on earth could they know what pieces of land to expropriate if they hadn't figured out PRECISELY how they are going to build a rapidway along Yonge, including through Thornhill?

Just because I want everyone here to understand how totally wrong you are, with your silly questions, here's an old presentation that shows the Y1 (Yonge, Steeles to 7) rapidway plan which DEFINITELY did exist and which DEFINITELY was approved by pols.

Note the date- less than a month before the subway, which they did not know was coming.
I'm not going to waste time digging up the 2006-07 Toronto City Council reports on their busway, from Finch to Steeles but it most assuredly existed too
It existed a mere 10 years ago; the system was designed and engineered for easy upgrade to LRT, as I'm pretty sure you know, ergo you are totally and 100% wrong and I especially have no idea what $3m you're talking about. This was a full rapidway and it was supposed to be the first built, with (as you can see), Highway 7 next and then Yonge north, which is now being built.

(why, gee - it's even been mentioned on Urban Toronto - check #37 and #46.)

lol oh I knew it all along and called you out for this years ago. Hardcore Ford supporter.

Dear lord, you are more wrong than usual today. I'd sooner vote for you riding a chimpanzee than Doug Ford or anyone else in that ghastly family. I'm sorry I can't bring multiple citations of proof of your wrongness, as I have done in my past 2 posts, but you'll have to take my word.
Man, if you knew me, you'd appreciate the sheer hilarity. Do you also think I'm a starting forward with the Raptors?

The question is not whether I support uploading (which I do, if it's done right - which he is almost certainly incapable of) but that he said he'd do it. So you can make jests about me being a Ford supporter, but the reality is that a consistent argument here against the subway is that YR should have to pay since it's Toronto's subway. Well, Doug said he'd made two crappy beers cost only a buck for a few weeks and he did it, so I've no reason to believe he won't follow through on uploading. Once he does, that argument against the subway extension will no longer exist.

 

[rbt]

I'm not advocating for a subway to Vaughan Mills but the argument becomes meaningless if the province uploads the subway, like they say they will.

Doug thus far has only proposed uploading the capital component of the subway (as in who gets to benefit from the depreciation lineitem in their accounting books).

That would mean TTC still absorbs the costs of maintenance and operations subsidies (if any).

The report will likely recommend the province be responsible for more than strictly ownership but if it is strictly an ownership change as Doug proposed then the TTC continue to be on on the hook for operations subsidies for Vaughan service.

 

[44 North]

You're borderline delusional.
It was an intrinsic part of Viva. They DID approve it. They finished the EA. They were - as I just demonstrated - literally set to start the construction work when the subway plan was announced. So it was supported by the majority of pols in Markham and Vaughan ad York Region, QED.
Did you even READ the stuff I posted? Here is Vaughan council EXPLICITLY endorsing the BRT, even with the subway announcement:

I guess it's a bit off to opine they weren't planning to build anything, cuz yes obviously there are docs of plans - plans that got to where they were due to pols voting on the matter. And it's more of a personal view that if a bus operates in mixed traffic that it's no longer BRT. Or 2-3 car trains operating in mixed traffic being LRT. There were obviously problems with the vision for a rapidway south of 7, and that's just for buses let alone the concept of a system of LRVs. Technically, politically, realistically. But yes there were plans on the matter.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Thanks for the concession, I guess.
you can tell me what "should be" - and sometimes you may have a point - but I'll keep telling you what actually is and was. I vividly remember the BRT plans (and opposition from retail along Yonge) and how quickly the Region had to change gears. I don't remember how they dealt with going through the heritage district - someone with enough time could dig up the EAs which must be from 2004-05ish -and all the questions would be answered. Maybe from Centre Street to Royal Orchard they were going to move from a rapidway into mixed traffic - I honestly don't recall. But there was definitely a full rapidway for most of the Steeles-7 stretch, as well as TTC from Steeles to Finch.

Doug thus far has only proposed uploading the capital component of the subway (as in who gets to benefit from the depreciation lineitem in their accounting books).

That would mean TTC still absorbs the costs of maintenance and operations subsidies (if any).

If we've learned nothing it should be that Doug lies and has no clue what he's doing and will likely do the least sensible thing. He can't upload TTC's subway and keep extending it without accounting for operating costs Or at least he shouldn't. But, as I just admitted, I guess, that doesn't mean he won't... It's an exciting time to be living in Ontario!