Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[44 North]

Because that would have required either a more major realignment of the line than they were willing to do, or a permanent take of a lot more land than they ended up using in the end.

Dan

And if was pursued it likely would've been easier to build, less money, and arguably better from a planning perspective seeing that the line would've kept on Jane instead of a block west. It's incredibly swampy and boggy, 407 station is sitting in the floodplain, it's not exactly conducive to tunneling and deep stations. South of the tracks everything would remain as today.

 

[DirectionNorth]

Snow squalls hit the GTA much more above Highway 7/407. Third rail powered heavy rail can cause problems with heavy snowfall. Open stretches of the Line 1 extension may cause short turns during snow squalls. The rails had better be raised high enough than the surrounding terrain to help keep snow off the third rail.

Simple. Cut and cover tunnels.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Unfortunately, TYSSE appears to highlight the case. If my memory serves me, one of the TYSSE stations has 2 mezzanine levels; why does it need to be so deep?

It really doesn't matter for the TYSSE stations. They weren't mined because the ground was all crap, and since they weren't mined stations, they had to be cut and cover. If you're digging a giant hole in an urban area with nowhere to store muck from your shaft, your cheapest bet is just to build a giant cavern, because the amount of money you'd be spending on trucks to backfill that site with granular material would not be worth it.

Yonge North, or TYSSE?

For Yonge North, the options are limited and most of it if not all must be tunneled.

But TYSSE ... could go on surface or in a very shallow trench (like at Rosedale) from Sheppard to Finch. Would have to mess with streets like Rimrock, Steeprock, Chesswood, but that's all low-rise industrial or strip malls and could be rebuilt for peanuts compared to the cost of tunneling. The Finch station would be located between Chesswood and the Newmarket rail line, rather than at Keele, and the GO station could go there as well. That's not necessarily bad, as a single hub would connect the subway, Barrie GO line, and Finch LRT.

Then, tunnel under York U till just north of the 407, with underground York U and Steels stations. And then, emerge and run on surface to the south-west corner of Jane and Hwy 7, where the terminal would be located. Again, a low-rise industrial area that can be rebuilt.

If I remember correctly, York U specifically had to be pretty deep specifically to not disturb lab equipment. I believe there is special track installed too to reduce the vibration. At that point, if your train is 30+ meters below grade and you need to get track level to +10 meters above grade in the span of a kilometer, your track grades are going to be too steep. It may have just not been worth it either way.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Simple. Cut and cover tunnels.

It's really not that simple. You still have to shore those cut and cover tunnels and deal with all the utilities. Anyone that has worked on Finch west will know that the shoring work for Finch West station and the approach is immense, time consuming as hell, and extremely expensive.

 

[DirectionNorth]

It's really not that simple. You still have to shore those cut and cover tunnels and deal with all the utilities. Anyone that has worked on Finch west will know that the shoring work for Finch West station and the approach is immense, time consuming as hell, and extremely expensive.

Costs for cut-and-cover are typically half of bored tunnels, from my limited Google-research into this subject. Remember, it's not the tunnel that's expensive, it's the stations.

 

[nfitz]

Because that would have required either a more major realignment of the line than they were willing to do, or a permanent take of a lot more land than they ended up using in the end.

I was thinking from day one.

I hadn't realised it was realigned (at least after they chose Jane rather than Keele or other streets). What was the original alignment?

 

[Rainforest]

If I remember correctly, York U specifically had to be pretty deep specifically to not disturb lab equipment. I believe there is special track installed too to reduce the vibration. At that point, if your train is 30+ meters below grade and you need to get track level to +10 meters above grade in the span of a kilometer, your track grades are going to be too steep. It may have just not been worth it either way.

Fair point, perhaps that's the cause. Although TYSSE wouldn't need to be above grade anywhere (partly tunneled and partly at-grade), but maybe the presence of the deep York U station in the middle of TYSSE shortens any possible at-grade sections and negates the savings from those.

 

[smallspy]

It's really not that simple. You still have to shore those cut and cover tunnels and deal with all the utilities. Anyone that has worked on Finch west will know that the shoring work for Finch West station and the approach is immense, time consuming as hell, and extremely expensive.

In a more general sense, it gets more complicated when you factor in the various land holders with the alignments. Building under a street is (relatively) easy, but subways sometimes need to reach areas that are not underneath a street. That can work in some cases - for instance, the YUS through downtown - but not everywhere.

In the more specific sense of the TYSSE, CN said very, very early on that any alignment that went anywhere near the plant at Snider West - the interlocking that allows trains to access MacMillian Yard from the west, and sits east of Jane St. - would have to ensure that there was no interference or damage to the tracks whatsoever. This very quickly ruled out cut-and-cover through that section.

If I remember correctly, York U specifically had to be pretty deep specifically to not disturb lab equipment. I believe there is special track installed too to reduce the vibration. At that point, if your train is 30+ meters below grade and you need to get track level to +10 meters above grade in the span of a kilometer, your track grades are going to be too steep. It may have just not been worth it either way.

The track and substructure is the same through there as it is on the rest of the alignment, which I guess is a testament to the soundness of the design used on the line.

I was thinking from day one.

I hadn't realised it was realigned (at least after they chose Jane rather than Keele or other streets). What was the original alignment?

It's not that the alignment is vastly different than what it was always envisioned to be (an earlier version had the line swinging west under Finch, not Sheppard, and the change to run it west of Jane seemed to have happened around 2005 or so), but elevating it would have required more property to be purchased rather than leased or had a lien on them because of the additional properties that would have been affected post-construction. Think about it, if you elevate the line, you need to bring it up above ground somewhere - and that portal is going to be a large, permanent structure that can no long be used to build anything else on.

Dan

 

[Allandale25]

Detailed post here.

Out of their Depth: A Review of Royal Orchard’s Obstructionism

(8-12 minute read) Read about the position of Royal Orchard’s ‘Keep the Subway on Yonge’ opposition group, why their position is flawed, and how Metrolinx’s response to the …

auguststreet.wordpress.com

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Detailed post here.

Out of their Depth: A Review of Royal Orchard’s Obstructionism

(8-12 minute read) Read about the position of Royal Orchard’s ‘Keep the Subway on Yonge’ opposition group, why their position is flawed, and how Metrolinx’s response to the …

auguststreet.wordpress.com

It's a pretty good and thoughtful post and I agree with the vast majority of it but I think he's just a it too hard on the Royal Orchard residents..

I've said all along, I totally empathize with someone getting a letter that their home is going to be affected by this project - maybe completely expropriated - and being concerned with that. I also think Metrolinx answered as many concerns as they could and a lot of people just don't want to listen but still...

For example, he's right that NIMBYs often complain about the impacts on their property values and that transit actually almost certainly will improve their property values. BUT that's not universal. It's not true for people who lose their homes - and there will be some people, if only a few - and it's also perfectly understandable someone would be worried about a subway tunnel literally being tunnelled and then operated directly beneath their home. As I said above, I think Metrolinx has adequately demonstrated they shouldn't be worried about that but let's be honest - if any one of us got that letter in our own mailbox, we'd assume the worst too. So when you make a statement like, "any concerns about the loss of property values are completely void." you're just overstating the point, IMHO.

I think it's also unfair to say they're hypocrites because they're willing to have a subway go under Langstaff - a neighbourhood that isn't built yet - instead of under theirs, one which has existed for decades. That's actually a pretty rational argument - not that future residents shouldn't be considered but there is a difference between what's there now and what isn't. Again, who among us would see themselves as entitled for saying, "How come you' think doing something to my existing house is OK but doing something where there won't be buildings for 20 years is OK?"

I do agree they haven't really cared about the idea their preferred route would cost a lot more money etc. and there's a selfishness/blindness there. That's not unique to this neighbourhood so as much as I think they're wrong, I don't see the point bashing them for it over and over. They earned a very minor tweak - a cost neutral one, apparently - and got a new station that will be paid for by the development they would have compromised if they had their way. Like most compromises, it's imperfect but despite the spin we're seeing, it wasn't some great victory for NIMBYism and it was probably the best scenario, as far as it goes.

 

[44 North]

Detailed post here.

Out of their Depth: A Review of Royal Orchard’s Obstructionism

(8-12 minute read) Read about the position of Royal Orchard’s ‘Keep the Subway on Yonge’ opposition group, why their position is flawed, and how Metrolinx’s response to the …

auguststreet.wordpress.com

I still can't wrap my head around how in the span of a few months Metrolinx showed residents a 20m deep subway being "imperceptible" (their words), but then decided it's imperative to more than double that depth to keep things "peaceful and quiet" (their words, again). Pretty big flip flop. It's either spinelessness or political, or both I guess. Will we get an eventual FOI?

 

[W. K. Lis]

Out of their Depth: A Review of Royal Orchard’s Obstructionism​

From link.

It's a large article. Only copy-n-pasting the intro. Click on the link above to see the complete article.

The existence of Royal Orchard is more prevalent than ever for any stakeholder involved in the Yonge North Subway project. The $5.6 billion proposal to construct a subway that passes through the suburban neighbourhood has spurred more headlines than any other event in Royal Orchard history. Unrelenting opposition from several residents have pushed Metrolinx to make various costly changes to this segment of the extension with little additional benefit. This article will cover the opposition’s emergence, address their platform, and review Metrolinx’s response.

A Flawed Platform​

‘Keep the Subway on Yonge’ makes 4 primary claims against the current YNSE iteration:

• The proposal “adversely affects the health and well-being of thousands of residents“
• Homes will be ‘blighted’ financially if a subway line is constructed beneath them
• No rationale to tunnel under through the “heart of a single-family neighbourhood”
• No guarantee by Metrolinx to ensure that noise and vibration mitigation techniques will be effective

The group closes their position by stating that the YNSE proposal would “devastate” their neighbourhood and would be a “very costly mistake”.

Now, let’s address each of these points based on the information given by Metrolinx, independent studies, and the outcomes of past subway projects to discuss why these points are invalid.

 

[Jules]

Interestingly enough, I checked out his website and it appears he was shown the new plans by Metrolinx. He created this route map of how the line will reach the RH corridor. This possibly the route Metrolinx wants to take?

Yonge Subway Extension Alignment Concerns

On March 17, 2021, I received a confidential briefing by Metrolinx on their initial business case for the Yonge North Subway Extension. Most notable among the items presented was the proposed alignment of the subway as it travels north of Centre Street/Thornhill Summit Drive in Thornhill...

markhamward1.ca

View attachment 306430

Perfect for people going to the thorn hill club!

 

[Allandale25]

Metrolinx presenting to York Region Council right now.

Presentation here:

https://yorkpublishing.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=29591

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Metrolinx presenting to York Region Council right now.

Presentation here:

https://yorkpublishing.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=29591

You beat me too it.
18 deputations from residents and 107 letters, almost entirely voicing criticism of alignment and either not believing or not caring to listen anything Metrolinx has told them about vibrations and impacts.
Could go on for a few hours, this meeting.