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TTC: Streetcar Network

GameOnBrad said:
It's a full teardown at College & Bay...

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And closeups...

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Wait, so now the 506 is modified too? Whose idea was it to rebuild parts of almost the entire east-west streetcar network all at once while the Ontario line is under construction? Only Dundas has unmodified service and that is being used to support King 504, Queen 501 and now College/Carlton 506.
 
nightstreak said:
Wait, so now the 506 is modified too? Whose idea was it to rebuild parts of almost the entire east-west streetcar network all at once while the Ontario line is under construction? Only Dundas has unmodified service and that is being used to support King 504, Queen 501 and now College/Carlton 506.
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I'm gonna guess FIFA has something to do with it.
 
reaperexpress said:
Where are there dual-blade switches on the mainline? I'm only aware of the ones in Leslie barns where the yard limit is 10 regardless of switches.
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There are at least two other test installations on the mainline - Lansdowne and College is one, and I can't recall where the other one is off of the top of my head. I want to say that it's around the Ex.

reaperexpress said:
These are not different ideas. These are two elements of the same idea, which is updating the switch design & control standards. Replacing the switch control system is indeed the more important of the two, but given that switches stay in the ground for half a century once installed, it's also important to talk about the switch geometry at the same time.
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Right, but the TTC is also locked into a long-term contract for switch and crossing components. I'm not certain that they can change the switch design without reopening the contract - as it was, those test installations had to be procured outside of the regular trackwork contract that existed at that time.

And keep in mind too, that there will then be the requirement to survey every intersection coming up for replacement and check for locates, etc. to verify that there will be nothing in the way.

Look, I'm not saying that it's not a good idea to do. But I would argue in the grand scheme of things that there are more important things for the TTC to spend its money on - at least right now.

reaperexpress said:
Yes I'm aware that modern switches have a different geometry but the question is whether having a longer switch actually makes such a large difference to the footprint of the switch that it requires changing "intersection geometry". My impression is that the consequence of the longer turnout only works out to a few centimetres difference in lateral footprint in the centre of the curve, or is it larger than that?
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I would suspect that at most intersections the rest of the trackwork - the crossings and curves - can remain where they are but it will absolutely change where the switch motors will be located, and how far out from the "intersection" trackwork will stick vis-a-vis the trangent track that approaches and leaves it.

And that difference will be multiple feet for each switch installation.

reaperexpress said:
Like you said, the current N/A switch control system is garbage. So when we talk about installing new switch equipment we're also talking about installing a different control system.
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But the two are not mutually inclusive, either. They could do one or the other independently.

At the end of the day, one of those two systems is actively in the way of holding up progress of improving the system - and it's not the track and switches.

Dan
 
nfitz said:
I was on a car when the POPs came through (which seems to happen frequently enough on 506 on lower Gerrard Street). It was quite empty, and they came in the back, I asked them why they hadn't checked the guy sleeping across the back seats. "Do you think he could pay" they asks? Is there nothing you can do (this was before winter - it was a nice day)? "He hasn't done anything wrong, and isn't harming anyone" they says (what, other than not paying, and several sections of Bylaw 1?). We can't do anything unless they a danger to others", The guy, who was about 6 rows away must have stirred, because he started shouting something. So I shouted back at him that he should shut up. Then he started threatening us. I asked if they were going to do anything now "No, if you think it's necessary then you need to press the emergency button".

They did politely ask where he was going to, and he decided to get off ... but it was very Kafkaesque. It's almost like they were doing everything they could to not have to do any paperwork. That they'd so blatantly ignore threats of physical violence was disgusting.

There needs to be a policy shift at TTC to get any real change.
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Expect streetcar ridership to continue to fall through the floor so long as this disgusting status-quo of rules for the sober and sane, but free-reign for anyone else continues. Kafkaesque is exactly the word for it, if not surreal, and tears at the public's belief in the validity of our institutions.

I'll never forget the time one of our heroes at TPS resolved a 45 minute drunken knife stand-off at a place I once worked by walking the perpetrator out to the street, and putting him on the next bus that came by, bottle of Fireball still in hand.
 
nfitz said:
Which isn't related to the TTC Flexities being cheaper than the Citadis. Surely that the Flexity is cheaper suggests that the curves are not a huge issue.

As we've discussed, the curves that were identified for upgrade as part of the first round of bidding (where all bids were rejected) was a lot more than a handful. Recall the Admiral's post (among others).
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How exactly would the curve extension through the sidewalk work...? Maybe I'm reading the diagram wrong?
 
In Europe, and most of the rest of the world, they use more safety islands at tram/streetcar stops. This allows for simpler ramps for wheelchairs. In Toronto, they get rid of the islands for the benefit of motorists.
jmi22 said:
How exactly would the curve extension through the sidewalk work...? Maybe I'm reading the diagram wrong?
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Think "truck apron". If they do it for trucks in suburbia, they can do the same with streetcars in downtown.
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Monarch Butterfly said:
In Europe, and most of the rest of the world, they use more safety islands at tram/streetcar stops. This allows for simpler ramps for wheelchairs. In Toronto, they get rid of the islands for the benefit of motorists.

Think "truck apron". If they do it for trucks in suburbia, they can do the same with streetcars in downtown.
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I think the problem was that the tracks at that radius nearly touch the corners of building at the intersections, essentially making four giant patches of unusable/unsafe sidewalk at every four-way. If the streets were fully pedestrian-only, it might make marginally more sense, but the proximity to the buildings seems like a deathtrap for any pedestrian or cyclist rushing (and failing) to get past it on the right before turns, or worse yet, force cars onto the sidewalks.
 
smallspy said:
There are at least two other test installations on the mainline - Lansdowne and College is one, and I can't recall where the other one is off of the top of my head. I want to say that it's around the Ex.
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smallspy said:
College eastbound at Lansdowne, trailing.

It's a special design specifically for trailing switches, but has the geometry of a double-point switch.
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The 2018 image shows a single-point switch:
Capture 2.jpg


So their 'test installation of a dual leaf switch' doesn't have dual leaves?

smallspy said:
Right, but the TTC is also locked into a long-term contract for switch and crossing components. I'm not certain that they can change the switch design without reopening the contract - as it was, those test installations had to be procured outside of the regular trackwork contract that existed at that time.
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How long is this "long-term" contract, and when does it expire? From what I've seen, the sole-source procurement contracts are typically 5 years. Even if they are within a 5-year contract, they need to start working on selecting new standards so they're ready by the time they next need to go to procurement. Otherwise they'll have no choice but to extend the current design for yet another 5 years.

smallspy said:
And keep in mind too, that there will then be the requirement to survey every intersection coming up for replacement and check for locates, etc. to verify that there will be nothing in the way.

Look, I'm not saying that it's not a good idea to do. But I would argue in the grand scheme of things that there are more important things for the TTC to spend its money on - at least right now.

I would suspect that at most intersections the rest of the trackwork - the crossings and curves - can remain where they are but it will absolutely change where the switch motors will be located, and how far out from the "intersection" trackwork will stick vis-a-vis the trangent track that approaches and leaves it.

And that difference will be multiple feet for each switch installation.

But the two are not mutually inclusive, either. They could do one or the other independently.

At the end of the day, one of those two systems is actively in the way of holding up progress of improving the system - and it's not the track and switches.
Click to expand...

The key question here is whether the TTC would seriously allow through speeds to be raised from 10 km/h to 40 km/h or so with the existing switch design if it were connected to a new switch control system. If that is true, then you are correct that we can ignore the fact that we use an expensive and obsolete switch design that only one company makes anymore. But I suspect that regardless of the switch control system, the TTC would insist on a 10 km/h limit through the existing switch design, in which case replacing them with a more modern layout has the potential to save a huge amount of operating expenses over their lifetime thanks to reduced round trip times. So as far as "things we should be spending our money on", it's quite high on the list.
 
reaperexpress said:
The 2018 image shows a single-point switch:
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So their 'test installation of a dual leaf switch' doesn't have dual leaves?


How long is this "long-term" contract, and when does it expire? From what I've seen, the sole-source procurement contracts are typically 5 years. Even if they are within a 5-year contract, they need to start working on selecting new standards so they're ready by the time they next need to go to procurement. Otherwise they'll have no choice but to extend the current design for yet another 5 years.



The key question here is whether the TTC would seriously allow through speeds to be raised from 10 km/h to 40 km/h or so with the existing switch design if it were connected to a new switch control system. If that is true, then you are correct that we can ignore the fact that we use an expensive and obsolete switch design that only one company makes anymore. But I suspect that regardless of the switch control system, the TTC would insist on a 10 km/h limit through the existing switch design, in which case replacing them with a more modern layout has the potential to save a huge amount of operating expenses over their lifetime thanks to reduced round trip times. So as far as "things we should be spending our money on", it's quite high on the list.
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Can someone post a picture of a dual blade switch? I was trying to visually understand the difference and google images isn't helping.
 
GameOnBrad said:
I'm not sure they actually did any work on the bridge along Queen and over the Viaduct but they definitely are working on the strip between the Don Valley on ramp and Broadview...

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The project does NOT include track on or west of the bridge (SEE: https://www.ttc.ca/about-the-ttc/projects-and-plans/Queen-Street-East-Track-Renewal ) . There is an expansion joint on east side of the bridge that has caused problems for years; if TTC were on top of things (which they occasionally are) they would be fixing it permanently while the track is closed. We shall see - or not!!
 
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