TTC: Streetcar Network

[nightstreak]

IDK about the 504, but I'm liking the 501 diversion onto Dundas. Normally I'd have to walk from Gerrard to Queen but can now catch it much closer to my place.

I suspect that this diversion is why it's become a defacto homeless shelter. Dundas East goes through some pretty rough neighbourhoods and I've noticed that this is where most of the unhoused folks get off. I used to take the 504 (years...decades ago when it was still running /s) and it's never come close to this bad. There was a guy in a full-on makeshift tent in the back seats when I took the 501 eastbound yesterday. Last week, there were 3 people sleeping in different sections of the same 501 streetcar. Every other time, it's been a redzone smell-o-meter of an experience. I get that these people don't want to be in that situation and I'm compassionate about their situation and I'm in favour of spending on social programs and shelters and hope their lives improve but the city doing nothing about it and letting public transit be taken over to the point that someone as liberal as I want a heavy handed approach and/or stops taking transit, is not sustainable either.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I suspect that this diversion is why it's become a defacto homeless shelter.

That's nothing new. Once fare payment became an honour system with very infrequent enforcement along with near zero punishment (how's a penniless tramp to pay a fine?) the TTC's streetcars within the Parliament-College-Bathurst-King box (see below) became a squat for junkies and vagrants. If we would just enforce fares within this 3.5 x 1.5 km (5.25 sq.km) area the TTC's streetcar experience would be much better for everyone else.

The Flexity Outlooks make it worse as the only TTC staffer onboard is isolated in their protected cab and has near zero interaction with their charges behind. But I only take the 501 eastbound, and it's a totally different vibe. Just sane, sober and stable folks going about their day.

 

[Towered]

I used to be a frequent transit user, but have essentially given up on it. Toronto has forsaken me.

 

[nightstreak]

Once fare payment became an honour system with very infrequent enforcement along with near zero punishment

I often question myself why I'm paying at all when 1 out of every 5 who board are tapping.

If the TTC wants to attract people out of their cars, then there needs to be a sense that we're all pulling our weight and we're getting a valuable service.

I don't like to see militarized cops demanding fares, I think that's completely unnecessary and makes everyone uncomfortable, but a fare inspector, dressed as a transit employee not a cop, checking fares takes care of the "crime of opportunity" factor since most people would be embarrassed into paying their fare and when there are those riding without a fare, enforcement can be called and the freeloader either gets off or is confronted a few stops later.

I don't remember where I saw this, maybe Bilbao or was it Toulouse, where this exact scenario played out. There was a smiling transit employee dressed in traditional rail garb on the tram and a tourist got on without paying, dismissed the employee and a couple of stops later, cops got on and took him off.

 

[APTA-2048]

I often question myself why I'm paying at all when 1 out of every 5 who board are tapping.

If the TTC wants to attract people out of their cars, then there needs to be a sense that we're all pulling our weight and we're getting a valuable service.

I don't like to see militarized cops demanding fares, I think that's completely unnecessary and makes everyone uncomfortable, but a fare inspector, dressed as a transit employee not a cop, checking fares takes care of the "crime of opportunity" factor since most people would be embarrassed into paying their fare and when there are those riding without a fare, enforcement can be called and the freeloader either gets off or is confronted a few stops later.

I don't remember where I saw this, maybe Bilbao or was it Toulouse, where this exact scenario played out. There was a smiling transit employee dressed in traditional rail garb on the tram and a tourist got on without paying, dismissed the employee and a couple of stops later, cops got on and took him off.

TTC fare enforcement seems to do the absolute bare minimum. They’re always in the same location or always in locations that are convenient for them.

Compared to GO Transit and YRT, where I’ve encountered fare inspectors all over the system.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I often question myself why I'm paying at all when 1 out of every 5 who board are tapping.

Me too, every time.

a fare inspector, dressed as a transit employee not a cop, checking fares takes care of the "crime of opportunity" factor since most people would be embarrassed into paying their fare and when there are those riding without a fare, enforcement can be called and the freeloader either gets off or is confronted a few stops later. I don't remember where I saw this, maybe Bilbao or was it Toulouse, where this exact scenario played out. There was a smiling transit employee dressed in traditional rail garb on the tram and a tourist got on without paying, dismissed the employee and a couple of stops later, cops got on and took him off.

My granddad drove a London UK bus for decades. I remember as a small lad getting on his bus and being met by the conductor, who's task was to collect fares from everyone and to keep the peace. I doubt the recovered fares would cover the cost of full time conductors or fare enforcers, so I instead suggest we put them on every streetcar within the box above. Once the streetcar exits the box, the fare enforcement officer can exit that streetcar and grab the next one going back into the box. At any one time, how many streetcars can there possibly be within that box, perhaps forty, likely less?

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

TTC fare enforcement seems to do the absolute bare minimum. They’re always in the same location or always in locations that are convenient for them.

Compared to GO Transit and YRT, where I’ve encountered fare inspectors all over the system.

No paid fare, get off.

 

[Jonny5]

I suspect that this diversion is why it's become a defacto homeless shelter. Dundas East goes through some pretty rough neighbourhoods and I've noticed that this is where most of the unhoused folks get off. I used to take the 504 (years...decades ago when it was still running /s) and it's never come close to this bad. There was a guy in a full-on makeshift tent in the back seats when I took the 501 eastbound yesterday. Last week, there were 3 people sleeping in different sections of the same 501 streetcar. Every other time, it's been a redzone smell-o-meter of an experience. I get that these people don't want to be in that situation and I'm compassionate about their situation and I'm in favour of spending on social programs and shelters and hope their lives improve but the city doing nothing about it and letting public transit be taken over to the point that someone as liberal as I want a heavy handed approach and/or stops taking transit, is not sustainable either.

There's also the fact it goes to/from CAMH to the shelters around Moss Park.

Seen plenty heading east on the 501 finishing off their methodone, and then getting all excited when they get to Sherbourne Street because they can get high again.

 

[nightstreak]

I doubt the recovered fares would cover the cost of full time conductors or fare enforcers,

The TTC loss to fare evasion is $140 MILLLION per year. I'm sure we can cover staff salaries.

so I instead suggest we put them on every streetcar within the box above. Once the streetcar exits the box, the fare enforcement officer can exit that streetcar and grab the next one going back into the box. At any one time, how many streetcars can there possibly be within that box, perhaps forty, likely less?

We don't need them on subways or buses, just random streetcars. The role would be an information transit rep with the red TTC jacket and hat and friendly smile. They would be there for information but would keep tabs on fares. They would step off at every stop, let people board, then get back on and keep an eye. If they notice someone not tapping, they would approach them to ask for their fare. If the person isn't compliant or if something concerning is happening onboard, they press a button on the streetcar that alerts the nearest transit constables to the vehicle's location and a few stops later, they would board and resolve the issue.

 

[Jonny5]

The TTC loss to fare evasion is $140 MILLLION per year. I'm sure we can cover staff salaries.

A significant chunk of that fare evasion isn't recoverable revenue. The fare evaders will simply stop using the TTC and then you have paid more for staff and gained no revenue from them.

Also, you all-caps that figure like it's a massive pool of money, but the scope of the cost of what you are asking for is also massive. To cover all the City you will need probably more than 1,000 people for 24 hour per day, seven day per week coverage, unless you are expecting the staff to work 16 hours per day straight. The linked article from Steve Munro also notes that on streetcars the lost revenue maxes out after 11:00 p.m., and I would speculate many evading the fare at that time have no money.

 

[lastcommodore]

The TTC loss to fare evasion is $140 MILLLION per year. I'm sure we can cover staff salaries.

Though i understand the "Some of this is unrecoverable" its important to note this is only the measureable 1st order effects... Not 2nd order and unmeasureable effects

Like others have mentioned, it influences others not to pay, and non-payers make up the bulk of less-than-ideal behaviour on the ttc...

BART had an interesting graph where preventing fare jumpers practically eliminated the need for corrective maintainence... Much to think about!

 

[Admiral Beez]

The TTC loss to fare evasion is $140 MILLLION per year. I'm sure we can cover staff salaries.

No, that $140 million assumes the scofflaws, insane and addicted who walk on today would convert into paying passengers. Many would not. But it doesn’t matter, we must spend the money to guarantee fare compliance, if only in the box below. You fish where the fish are.

 

[drum118]

Maybe TTC should do what Amsterdam does on their trams. You enter through 2 of the 5 doors with one being the front door. You tap on that opens a gate to the full car. To get off, you can exited by the 4 doors less the front door by tapping off that opens the gate to let you off.

Same applies to all subway entrance and very common in the US.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Four intersections in that stretch that will be replaced with outdated switches (I assume)?

which work better than the ones on line 6

 

[nfitz]

But it doesn’t matter, we must spend the money to guarantee fare compliance, if only in the box below.

Even if it costs more than it brings in?

This starts to turn into British-style idiocy, where you enforce petty laws at the sake of common sense ... and leads to disasters like the photo ID health cards, where the auditor determined that the cost of running the photo ID program instead of the old lifetime cards was more than it was costing to treat people who were abusing the system!