TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[sixrings]

Seconded.

You are a suburbanite in favour of the DRL, if and only if TORONTO is the only one who pays for it! I wouldnt say that is very supportive. Rather I would say that it is self serving because Toronto pays for a extra line (in your dream world) and you can ride the yonge line with considerably less people.

 

[JoeParez]

You are a suburbanite in favour of the DRL, if and only if TORONTO is the only one who pays for it! I wouldnt say that is very supportive. Rather I would say that it is self serving because Toronto pays for a extra line (in your dream world) and you can ride the yonge line with considerably less people.

Your logic suggests then that everyone that's not from Toronto is self serving and rides the Subway for free. Should tourists pay a tourist tax when they ride the subway because they're not from Toronto? Tourists also clog up the subway lines and take up seats on the train, might as well make them pay too!

Also, I never stated my personal feelings towards funding a DRL -- my point was it's not going to be other municipalities helping to pay for a subway that doesn't benefit them, but again.. I never said how I felt about it.

 

[44 North]

I more or less meant the outer-416 in my description of "sway of suburban voters". Obviously the 905 doesn't have any say in Toronto's transit matters (well, except for Sorbara and the strings he pulled).

And I'm not blaming the "evil suburbs". I'm blaming the vocal suburbanites who have steered the mayor of Toronto's focus to getting Sheppard extended. There are numerous interviews where Ford adamantly asserts that 'any transit project comes second to Sheppard'.

Thanks to their sway, and Ford's idiocy, a DRL is off the table until Sheppard has been started.

Your logic suggests then that everyone that's not from Toronto is self serving and rides the Subway for free. Should tourists pay a tourist tax when they ride the subway because they're not from Toronto? Tourists also clog up the subway lines and take up seats on the train, might as well make them pay too!

It's not the problem that they are simply 'riding the train'. It's that they are paying the same fare, yet riding the longest distances. So the operating costs are greater for them, yet not reflected in their fare. And since their origin is at the end of the line, service down-line steadily grows watered-down.

Fare zones are the only answer. Fair fares...nothing wrong with that. Plus, they work both ways. So it's not unfairly taxing suburban commuters.

 

[11th]

I more or less meant the outer-416 in my description of "sway of suburban voters". Obviously the 905 doesn't have any say in Toronto's transit matters (well, except for Sorbara and the strings he pulled).

And I'm not blaming the "evil suburbs". I'm blaming the vocal suburbanites who have steered the mayor of Toronto's focus to getting Sheppard extended. There are numerous interviews where Ford adamantly asserts that 'any transit project comes second to Sheppard'.

Thanks to their sway, and Ford's idiocy, a DRL is off the table until Sheppard has been started.

But the outer-416 does have more than half the populaton of Toronto - at least 1.5 million. So by numbers of course they will have a bigger voice.

 

[44 North]

But the outer-416 does have more than half the populaton of Toronto - at least 1.5 million. So by numbers of course they will have a bigger voice.

Yeah, but by actual population/employment density (and how that density minimizes transit costs per km), the inner-416 has got them beat. Though we have a quieter voice, ours is not garbled and incoherent with demanding what it wants.

 

[JoeParez]

Fare zones are the only answer. Fair fares...nothing wrong with that. Plus, they work both ways. So it's not unfairly taxing suburban commuters.

Fully agree and totally fair
The funny thing is that suburbanites, especially in the 905 do actually pair fare based on zones when using Viva - so it's not foreign to 905ers.
Maybe, like you said, it's the 'inner-416' that needs the convincing. They are Torontonians, thus viewed as the same person whether you're living at Finch and Weston or Dundas and Ossington.

 

[leopetr]

Fully agree and totally fair
The funny thing is that suburbanites, especially in the 905 do actually pair fare based on zones when using Viva - so it's not foreign to 905ers.

Most 905ers who commute to 416 live in Zone 1 and so never have to deal with Viva's zones. Also, having to pay a double fare for the privilege of crossing Steeles is quite resented.

 

[reaperexpress]

I'm a suburbanite in favour of the DRL, but as long as downtown councilors don't care about it, it's hard to make the case that anyone else should.

But please, continue blaming the evil suburbs.

Absolutely. I'm officially a resident of Vaughan (although I spend little time there these days), and I strongly disapprove of the Vaughan subway extension (complete waste of money) and strongly approve of the DRL.

It's really insulting that people assume that suburbanites are all conservative, selfish and ignorant. That's like assuming that Rob Ford to represents the viewpoints of all Torontonians.

On issues such as road tolls on the DVP, there will be at least a million or so suburbanites* who actually agree with the downtown residents' viewpoint. Yet the issue is portrayed as a suburb vs downtown issue, alienating the suburban voters who might actually agree with the "downtown" viewpoint. Maybe the downtown were more welcoming of support from the suburbs, they might get their way more often.

* over 4M of the GTA's 5.4M population lives in the suburbs

People in the suburbs often go downtown, but the odds of a downtown resident going to any given suburb is pretty low (there is little reason to do so). Consequently, suburban residents benefit from downtown projects while the reverse is not true.

Believe it or not, there are people in the suburbs who are well aware that without the core, many suburban municipalities would be nothing, so downtown investment is completely worthwhile.

 

[44 North]

It's interesting to look at all the TTC service changes (mostly reductions) starting in January.

What struck me most were the reductions for the 84 Sheppard W, and more importantly the 85 Sheppard E. There's not a single increase in service: Reductions for AM peak service on the 85, 1:30 reductions for M-F midday service. Really? If it qualifies for bus service reductions, why the hell should it qualify for a subway extension?

It's a bit baffling how one thing can be seen both as found gravy, yet simultaneously a "priority" for a $5,000,000,000 subway extension.

 

[andrewpmk]

It's interesting to look at all the TTC service changes (mostly reductions) starting in January.

What struck me most were the reductions for the 84 Sheppard W, and more importantly the 85 Sheppard E. There's not a single increase in service: Reductions for AM peak service on the 85, 1:30 reductions for M-F midday service. Really? If it qualifies for bus service reductions, why the hell should it qualify for a subway extension?

It's a bit baffling how one thing can be seen both as found gravy, yet simultaneously a "priority" for a $5,000,000,000 subway extension.

The service reductions are a change in loading standards for major bus routes, essentially meaning that buses are allowed to be more overcrowded before the TTC increases service. In other words expect the 85 Sheppard East to become more of a sardine can. This is simply a budget cut, and in no way does it indicate a lack of demand, as one can clearly see from the heavy use of the Sheppard East/Finch East buses and traffic congestion. Highway 401 is bumper to bumper traffic westbound in AM rush hour west of Morningside, there are many people who commute from Scarborough/Durham to North York/Markham. Clearly the subway extension IS needed and cutting bus service is a mistake.

 

[TOareaFan]

Most 905ers who commute to 416 live in Zone 1 and so never have to deal with Viva's zones. Also, having to pay a double fare for the privilege of crossing Steeles is quite resented.

Just a guess, most 905ers who commute to 416 do not live in Zone 1 or even know wher it is

 

[44 North]

Highway 401 is bumper to bumper traffic westbound in AM rush hour west of Morningside, there are many people who commute from Scarborough/Durham to North York/Markham. Clearly the subway extension IS needed and cutting bus service is a mistake.

If someone wants to get from Durham Region to Markham, they won't be taking a Sheppard Subway extension. The amount of transfers would be ridiculous. Even as a park 'n' ride situation, this wouldn't make any sense. Traveling all the way to Yonge, just to get to Markham!? Who would do that?

And I really wish there were stats that showed the demand for Scarborough to North York travel. Because IMO, it's not hugely significant. Regardless, a subway is U/C that will travel from Scarborough to midtown. That's good enough to meet any demand.

Sheppard advocates should really be shifting their focus to some kind of GO alternative if they want to create a cross-city/intercity commuter route.

 

[andrewpmk]

Highway 401 is bumper to bumper traffic westbound in AM rush hour west of Morningside, there are many people who commute from Scarborough/Durham to North York/Markham. Clearly the subway extension IS needed and cutting bus service is a mistake.

If someone wants to get from Durham Region to Markham, they won't be taking a Sheppard Subway extension. The amount of transfers would be ridiculous. Even as a park 'n' ride situation, this wouldn't make any sense. Traveling all the way to Yonge, just to get to Markham!? Who would do that?

And I really wish there were stats that showed the demand for Scarborough to North York travel. Because IMO, it's not hugely significant. Regardless, a subway is U/C that will travel from Scarborough to midtown. That's good enough to meet any demand.

Sheppard advocates should really be shifting their focus to some kind of GO alternative if they want to create a cross-city/intercity commuter route.

Sheppard would connect to Warden and Don Mills/Leslie where buses go to the main employment clusters in Markham, hopefully these bus routes would be expanded.

Also Sheppard would encourage employers to move Yonge/Sheppard where we want them.

 

[reaperexpress]

Just a guess, most 905ers who commute to 416 do not live in Zone 1 or even know wher it is

I don't get what you're saying here. Is this supposed to be a jab at 905ers, implying they're all ignorant about transit?

Or are you actually questioning what is almost certainly a true statement?

 

[GenerationW]

You are in the minority.

Exactly which minority am I in?