TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[gweed123]

So? Many cities in the world have no problem having dedicated equipment for each line. Heck, the number of LRT vehicles on on such a Sheppard LRT line (over 25 km from Downsview station to the Zoo) would exceed the LRT fleet of some cities. If Metrolinx anticipated 35 vehicles for a 12-km line, then it's easy to imagine 70 vehicles for a 25-km line (probably more given the heavier loads west of Don Mills station). The entire 48-km Baltimore light rail system only has about 50 30-metre long LRT cars.

There's many issues, but I don't see that orphaned technology really is an issue.

And yes, I think the ship has already sailed on this.

That's a very good point. I just think Toronto in general is very skeptical of 'unique' technologies for a specific line, given that they got burned with the SRT.

If Toronto had a mayor that was a bit more centre-right (and not so pig-headed), I would think that proposing using high floor LRT vehicles on Sheppard for both the new surface sections and the existing subway would have been a very reasonable compromise, and one that probably would have worked.

 

[ssiguy2]

Primove makes sense for especially Eglinton as it won't require the huge aamount of money and time to redo all the existing stations to accomodate the catenary connections. There is also a lot to be said for how it is less visually intrusive.
As far as a unique type of LRT concerns that is a moot point. It's made by Toronto and Montreal's sole supplier Bombardier so it's not at all relevant. Also I don't know if any of you saw the video presentation of the Primove but the trains also have hidden catenary connections in all the vehicles so they can be used on standard LRT rail lines if needed.

 

[nfitz]

As far as a unique type of LRT concerns that is a moot point. It's made by Toronto and Montreal's sole supplier Bombardier so it's not at all relevant.

There was an open tender for the new TTC LRTs. Any company in the world could bid on it. There were 3 bidders. None were technically acceptable, so it was rebid and there were 2 bidders if I remember correctly, and Bombardier was by far the lowest bidder.

I don't see what you mean by "sole supplier". If anyone had bid lower than Bombardier, they would have got the LRT contract. If I recall correctly, the other bid was almost 50% higher.

 

[Electrify]

Is there any reason a high floor dual mode "LRT" car could not be used on the existing subway lines?

 

[BMO]

Is there any reason a high floor dual mode "LRT" car could not be used on the existing subway lines?

well except for the fact that, then all the street platforms would have to be built higher and have longer ramps, thus increasing the costs for each station.

 

[gweed123]

well except for the fact that, then all the street platforms would have to be built higher and have longer ramps, thus increasing the costs for each station.

I'm sure a lot of people would be willing to swallow that cost difference if it meant a single continuous line along Sheppard. I know I would. Heck, I'd even be in favour of ending the line at the SLRT in order to help pay for it!

 

[Dan416]

Building anything other than subway on Sheppard West would be asinine. Building the SELRT was asinine enough to begin with. What exactly are people trying to accomplish on Sheppard? See how many transfers we can force on one corridor?

Bus <-> LRT <-> Subway <-> LRT <-> Bus

Where but Toronto would you see something so absurd within a few km of each other on ONE road!?!

 

[M II A II R II K]

Building anything other than subway on Sheppard West would be asinine. Building the SELRT was asinine enough to begin with. What exactly are people trying to accomplish on Sheppard? See how many transfers we can force on one corridor?

Bus <-> LRT <-> Subway <-> LRT <-> Bus

Where but Toronto would you see something so absurd within a few km of each other on ONE road!?!

At least the bus would run through the whole street and double up where the LRT and subways are running so you can leapfrog one of them!

 

[kEiThZ]

Building anything other than subway on Sheppard West would be asinine. Building the SELRT was asinine enough to begin with. What exactly are people trying to accomplish on Sheppard? See how many transfers we can force on one corridor?

Bus <-> LRT <-> Subway <-> LRT <-> Bus

Where but Toronto would you see something so absurd within a few km of each other on ONE road!?!

Honestly, at this point, I'm okay with them simply switching the subway to LRT. But then we'll hear cries about spending money to "downgrade". Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. In the end, the riders are the ones who lose.

 

[Ice_Burn]

Honestly, at this point, I'm okay with them simply switching the subway to LRT. But then we'll hear cries about spending money to "downgrade". Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. In the end, the riders are the ones who lose.

Agreed. The Sheppard stub was a mistake to begin with, so the choice we have is do as Ford would and throw good money after bad and continue the subway which would continue to be a drain on the system, or spend money to tear it out which would be seen as a 'downgrade' as you say. Neither one is particularly palatable and the third option, which is to just leave it as is and have the transfers, is the least painful on the old wallet. Thank Mel Lastman for that pickle, and Miller and the rest of council for supporting him on it back in the 90's.

 

[Dan416]

Agreed. The Sheppard stub was a mistake to begin with, so the choice we have is do as Ford would and throw good money after bad and continue the subway which would continue to be a drain on the system, or spend money to tear it out which would be seen as a 'downgrade' as you say. Neither one is particularly palatable and the third option, which is to just leave it as is and have the transfers, is the least painful on the old wallet. Thank Mel Lastman for that pickle, and Miller and the rest of council for supporting him on it back in the 90's.

Status quo FTW!

 

[gweed123]

Honestly, at this point, I'm okay with them simply switching the subway to LRT. But then we'll hear cries about spending money to "downgrade". Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. In the end, the riders are the ones who lose.

If they're going to do it, I would at least like to see it happen during a westward extension, that way they can at least say "look, we'd have a continuous line from Downsview to Morningside". It would be a lot more politically palatable as well if it were combined with an extension. "Sheppard Subway Conversion & Extension" sounds a lot better than just "Sheppard Subway Conversion".

It would also open up a lot more possibilities in terms of alignments for the western extension, as it could be above ground in some places if needed. Heck, they could even run it up Dufferin or the Barrie corridor and have it be the eastern leg of the Finch West LRT.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

If they're going to do it, I would at least like to see it happen during a westward extension, that way they can at least say "look, we'd have a continuous line from Downsview to Morningside". It would be a lot more politically palatable as well if it were combined with an extension. "Sheppard Subway Conversion & Extension" sounds a lot better than just "Sheppard Subway Conversion".

It would also open up a lot more possibilities in terms of alignments for the western extension, as it could be above ground in some places if needed. Heck, they could even run it up Dufferin or the Barrie corridor and have it be the eastern leg of the Finch West LRT.

That would save a lot of money.

 

[gweed123]

It would also open up a lot more possibilities in terms of alignments for the western extension, as it could be above ground in some places if needed. Heck, they could even run it up Dufferin or the Barrie corridor and have it be the eastern leg of the Finch West LRT.

So initially, not gonna lie, I just kinda pulled this out of my ass. But after thinking about it a little bit, it actually does kinda make sense. The concept wouldn't be all that different from what is being done now on Eglinton (surface on the ends, tunnel in the middle).

The connection between the two is done to by the least expensive connection possible, hence why it's LRT on open land around Downsview, and then up the rail corridor to Finch.

I've called it the Northern Crosstown, seeing as how referring to it by Sheppard or Finch is no longer really appropriate, plus I think it more accurately describes what it is.

Just an alternative to ponder.

PS: This could mean that Eglinton could be renamed the Midtown Crosstown, which I've always been a fan of, especially considering that if it's interlined with the SRT over 1/4 of it won't even be on Eglinton.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Wonder if possible for a tunneled section to veer north after Senlac and realign with Finch at Bathurst, to maximize the area served? There seems to be a few clusters of density and redevelopment opportunities along that route.

AoD