Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[drum118]

OH!!!...........My...........What the city to do now with all that lost revenue to built the white elephant???

Go back to plan 1 that will have the money to built the Eglinton LRT sooner than later.

Another Fall round of votes???

 

[pstogios]

OH!!!...........My...........What the city to do now with all that lost revenue to built the white elephant???

Go back to plan 1 that will have the money to built the Eglinton LRT sooner than later.

Another Fall round of votes???

This will absolutely not happen. This issue is now decided and the city has made its bed, for better or for worse (we all--except for the crazies--know it is for worse). We all need to stop flogging this dead horse.

 

[coffey1]

This issues is not about the SSE and its solid ridership. This issue was about Politics & a bunch of rich developers with the legal means to take advantage of a Political situation which affects their bottom lines. This also goes to show there are developers ready to build when the dust settles.

An LRT line will be extended to UTSC subway or not. The Politics are too big with UTSC's Political power & the Political optics of brining transit thru "priority areas". And when both the Subway & LRT lines are complete Scarborough will have the footprint to connect Sheppard to SCC & Connect Malvern to the LRT.

A properly integrated footprint instead of the LRT patchwork proposed from the pro Downtown Political Crazies & their media partners.

 

[salsa]

This issues is not about the SSE and its solid ridership. This issue was about Politics & a bunch of rich developers with the legal means to take advantage of a Political situation which affects their bottom lines.

Why is it not an issue to you that Toronto cooked the books to justify the Scarborough subway? Why are you not concerned about the reliability of ridership numbers and their role in influencing political decisions worth billions of dollars?

 

[44 North]

If we could hypothetically carve out the SRT's infrastructure (e.g tracks, stations, etc) - or perhaps just the 2.5km elevated portion - and place it 1:1 anywhere else in Toronto or the GTA, where do you guys think would be an appropriate placement? Example: Kipling to Sherway? Union to West Don Lands? Union to the Ex? Kennedy station toward Kingston Rd?...

 

[coffey1]

Why is it not an issue to you that Toronto cooked the books to justify the Scarborough subway? Why are you not concerned about the reliability of ridership numbers and their role in influencing political decisions worth billions of dollars?

Why is it an issue the Politicians cooked the books on the SSE And not most other project? Almost every major project on this City/Province goes over budget, time and everything else because the numbers are always cooked from the start to get it off the ground. I would say this kind Politics is needed because we have a group of Councillors & media who refuse to listen to the people in its suburbs.

You don't listen to the people you get divisive Politics. Its that simple. Im more concerned that this LRT/Subway BS will continue, we'll have zero unity to move forward on many other projects and likely to see another polarizing Mayor get elected out of further anger.

That should bother all of us.

This whole ridership "issue" was brought to light as it gave opportunity to extract more money for powerful developers and their savy lawyers and has noting to do with the SSE ridership being a problem. The only problem right now is the route and number of stops. Which is what should be discussed.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Why is it an issue the Politicians cooked the books on the SSE And not most other project? Almost every major project on this City/Province goes over budget, time and everything else because the numbers are always cooked from the start to get it off the ground. I would say this kind Politics is needed because we have a group of Councillors & media who refuse to listen to the people in its suburbs.

You don't listen to the people you get divisive Politics. Its that simple. Im more concerned that this LRT/Subway BS will continue, we'll have zero unity to move forward on many other projects and likely to see another polarizing Mayor get elected out of further anger.

That should bother all of us.

This whole ridership "issue" was brought to light as it gave opportunity to extract more money for powerful developers and their savy lawyers and has noting to do with the SSE ridership being a problem. The only problem right now is the route and number of stops. Which is what should be discussed.

It's an issue for every project. Did you not see people get angry over the vaughan disaster or the constant fights over the richmond hill extension? Suburban subways, not just Scarborough always bring these type of debates.

Why is it not an issue to you that Toronto cooked the books to justify the Scarborough subway? Why are you not concerned about the reliability of ridership numbers and their role in influencing political decisions worth billions of dollars?

Not the first time this happened. Tory will cook the books again for Sheppard east next year.

 

[bill r]

SmartTrack 2.0
http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/transit-fantasy-maps.3005/page-292#post-1109076

 

[coffey1]

It's an issue for every project. Did you not see people get angry over the vaughan disaster or the constant fights over the richmond hill extension? Suburban subways, not just Scarborough always bring these type of debates.

Not the first time this happened. Tory will cook the books again for Sheppard east next year.

Yes... Vaughan extension was assaulted weekly by Toronto's downtown media outlets & vocal downtown" transit advocates" and since it's conception, it was slagged in the media all thru design, it was like transit hell was upon us.

Wait. No. Thats just Scarborough. Aside from a few small mumbles in the media only a few articles would pop up with very little frequency. It wasn't until s#!t hit the fan on the Vaughan extension budgeting number fudge which was already deep into the project did we get some articles for a few weeks. And by then we were just told we will be paying more in private Project Management (as if that was the issue and not false budgeting) to get it built.

York Region doesn't have to fight through Toronto's downtown Political media and can build nice things in their suburb when its time. Scarborough which has many differing needs and different areas has been kicked, punch, spit at with no attention to integration and a plan which serves the bigger picture.

All you have to do is google both lines separately and see the massive discrepancies in articles over the last 10 years ,number of negative bias, and even worse many articles which are negative towards Vaughan go on to use this as a tool to slag the SSE.

Every project has had its books cooked in Toronto by Politicians. But its only an issue BEFORE hand in Scarborough. The rest go under the radar until it's built or almost built. We ignore everything else that exists in this City when its time to connect Scarborough.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Yes... Vaughan extension was assaulted weekly by Toronto's downtown media outlets & vocal downtown" transit advocates" and since it's conception, it was slagged in the media all thru design, it was like transit hell was upon us.

TYSSE was approved in a completely different environment than the Scarborough Subway. Back in 2005, compared to today, the Internet was still in its infancy, forums like urban Toronto had few users or didn't exist at all and people couldn't get easy access to technical documents regarding the project. So the reason you heard less criticism back then is probably because so few people had access to the proper information.

Today, we see hoards of criticism for the Yonge North Subway Extension from the media and online, even though that project is far more justified than the Scarborough Subway.

 

[aquateam]

TYSSE was approved in a completely different environment than the Scarborough Subway. Back in 2005, compared to today, the Internet was still in its infancy, forums like urban Toronto had few users or didn't exist at all and people couldn't get easy access to technical documents regarding the project. So the reason you heard less criticism back then is probably because so few people had access to the proper information.

Today, we see hoards of criticism for the Yonge North Subway Extension from the media and online, even though that project is far more justified than the Scarborough Subway.

I don't think it's just the media context of the TYSSE that makes it less criticized. It's also the fact that:
1) It doesn't involve abandoning a functional piece of grade separated infrastructure to build along an alternative route in the most expensive way possible to get to the exact same place for $3.5 billion dollars.
2) The city of Toronto is paying $526 million to get a $2.6 billion 6 station 8.6 kilometer extension for TYSSE, whereas it is paying over $1 billion for a $3.56 billion 1 station 6.2 kilometer extension for the SSE.
3) TYSSE didn't have an cancelled alternative plan that involved the Province footing the entire bill
4) TYSSE is a prerequisite for the Finch West LRT
5) TYSSE takes some load off of Yonge-Bloor, whereas SSE adds to it

 

[innsertnamehere]

the criticism of the yonge extension comes from its effects on the existing network, not its need. Nobody really disputes that the yonge line should be extended, they are just concerned about capacity issues.

Also, the Spadina extension only travels 6km in Toronto, the remaining 2.6km are in Vaughan.

 

[coffey1]

TYSSE was approved in a completely different environment than the Scarborough Subway. Back in 2005, compared to today, the Internet was still in its infancy, forums like urban Toronto had few users or didn't exist at all and people couldn't get easy access to technical documents regarding the project. So the reason you heard less criticism back then is probably because so few people had access to the proper information.

Today, we see hoards of criticism for the Yonge North Subway Extension from the media and online, even though that project is far more justified than the Scarborough Subway.

Not close IMO. The Star and Downtown media was around back then if they cared to challenge violently like they do with the SSE. They didn't and to this day it's not even comparable the number of SSE hate subway articles vs. Vaughan recently. Even some of the latest Richmond Hill extension articles seemed more like a promotional add than anything else.

What do you mean by "Far more justified" Is that regarding Vaughan Center more justiefied than Scarborough Center? or the the line itself? The line itself is justified. But SCC is a much higher priority than Vaughan or Richmond Hill Center.

Not because of future capacity and all the Political jargon that gets thrown around throwing numbers at projected ridership. But the optics of a City that run its main transit trunk on a specific technology & it's massive populated suburban area that has been beat around by poor Politics, broken promises and the RT disaster.


York Regions main paper and website pressure Politicians for better in all areas. Whereas Toronto's does the complete opposite and chooses to create battles within its own City.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Yes... Vaughan extension was assaulted weekly by Toronto's downtown media outlets & vocal downtown" transit advocates" and since it's conception, it was slagged in the media all thru design, it was like transit hell was upon us.

Wait. No. Thats just Scarborough. Aside from a few small mumbles in the media only a few articles would pop up with very little frequency. It wasn't until s#!t hit the fan on the Vaughan extension budgeting number fudge which was already deep into the project did we get some articles for a few weeks. And by then we were just told we will be paying more in private Project Management (as if that was the issue and not false budgeting) to get it built.

York Region doesn't have to fight through Toronto's downtown Political media and can build nice things in their suburb when its time. Scarborough which has many differing needs and different areas has been kicked, punch, spit at with no attention to integration and a plan which serves the bigger picture.

All you have to do is google both lines separately and see the massive discrepancies in articles over the last 10 years ,number of negative bias, and even worse many articles which are negative towards Vaughan go on to use this as a tool to slag the SSE.

Every project has had its books cooked in Toronto by Politicians. But its only an issue BEFORE hand in Scarborough. The rest go under the radar until it's built or almost built. We ignore everything else that exists in this City when its time to connect Scarborough.

TYSSE was approved in a completely different environment than the Scarborough Subway. Back in 2005, compared to today, the Internet was still in its infancy, forums like urban Toronto had few users or didn't exist at all and people couldn't get easy access to technical documents regarding the project. So the reason you heard less criticism back then is probably because so few people had access to the proper information.

Today, we see hoards of criticism for the Yonge North Subway Extension from the media and online, even though that project is far more justified than the Scarborough Subway.

I don't think it's just the media context of the TYSSE that makes it less criticized. It's also the fact that:
1) It doesn't involve abandoning a functional piece of grade separated infrastructure to build along an alternative route in the most expensive way possible to get to the exact same place for $3.5 billion dollars.
2) The city of Toronto is paying $526 million to get a $2.6 billion 6 station 8.6 kilometer extension for TYSSE, whereas it is paying over $1 billion for a $3.56 billion 1 station 6.2 kilometer extension for the SSE.
3) TYSSE didn't have an cancelled alternative plan that involved the Province footing the entire bill
4) TYSSE is a prerequisite for the Finch West LRT
5) TYSSE takes some load off of Yonge-Bloor, whereas SSE adds to it

Not close IMO. The Star and Downtown media was around back then if they cared to challenge violently like they do with the SSE. They didn't and to this day it's not even comparable the number of SSE hate subway articles vs. Vaughan recently. Even some of the latest Richmond Hill extension articles seemed more like a promotional add than anything else.

What do you mean by "Far more justified" Is that regarding Vaughan Center more justiefied than Scarborough Center? or the the line itself? The line itself is justified. But SCC is a much higher priority than Vaughan or Richmond Hill Center.

Not because of future capacity and all the Political jargon that gets thrown around throwing numbers at projected ridership. But the optics of a City that run its main transit trunk on a specific technology & it's massive populated suburban area that has been beat around by poor Politics, broken promises and the RT disaster.


York Regions main paper and website pressure Politicians for better in all areas. Whereas Toronto's does the complete opposite and chooses to create battles within its own City.

Here's the deal. Coffey's right that the YR mess should have been more scrutinized. That doesn't mean it wasn't, but it should have been way more. That does not justify Scarborough/Sheppard or Yonge/Woodbridge and vice versa. All four are below standard in some respect and all four are less important that the DRL long but here we are, with these most likely all going to be be built before the the most important line. Vaughan has more riders, but should it have come before Scarborough? Probably not, but it won't fix SCC's bad location or poor planning. Same thing can be asked about Scarborough and the DRL. And, frankly, people in Maple and Elgin Mills should not have subway access before Toronto taxpayers not just in Scarborough, but places like Riverdale and Mount Dennis. Ridiculous.

Suburban Torontonians, wanted subways to their house and now here we are. It's sad, and to think some decent go service years ago would have put a lid on this.

the criticism of the yonge extension comes from its effects on the existing network, not its need. Nobody really disputes that the yonge line should be extended, they are just concerned about capacity issues.

Also, the Spadina extension only travels 6km in Toronto, the remaining 2.6km are in Vaughan.

They should just open it to York U and fix the Vaughan part later.

 

[coffey1]

Scarborough Centre is an INNER Suburb within the City of Toronto. Just like North York Center, Just like Islington in Etobicoke. It makes absolute sense to be connected to the main TTC trunk

While the OUTTER suburbs of Vaughan & Richmond hill are controlled by very wealthy Political powers which seem to have the ability to make their building dreams come true. Toronto needs to stop fighting internally and start building.

We need to start lobbying for the DRL, SSE, Sheppard Subways, & LRT/BRT feeders and build a great network.

The minority Political special interest groups promoted by bickering media which is throwing the same tantrums against paying for integration does nothing to move the City forward. The whole public transit thing costs a lot of money so we need to do it right. Forcing our biggest inner Suburban Center in the City to be frugal, while other inner suburban Centers have subway, & outer suburban Centers add subway, more highways, in addition to BRT & LRT is unacceptable.

We have really done a lot wrong with planning, revitalizing and promoting our inner suburbs in Toronto. This needs to stop & we need have urgency for many differing needs. Not just me vs. them. LRT vs. Subway. Its attention to details.

Mr. Tory seems to have steadied the ship through hard Politics to a point we can finally start moving forward with better planning. It seems he had been hinting at coming out to tackle tax increases for Capital projects. Which is long overdue and hopefully he doesn't shy away. It really is time to get on and move forward.