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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

Is this a self-fulfilling prophecy though? Make a slow system, and long distance trips avoid transit like the plague (just take the car). There are a good number of people taking long distance trips. Buses are excellent for short trips if you give them good priority (bus lanes, queue jumps, etc.).

In terms of extensions, maybe what they could have done (instead of subway) is extend a branch to Malvern, and another branch to UTSC.
The original plan back in the 70''s/80's was to have streetcars going to Malvern and most likely pass UTSC as I have never seen a real detail map for that extension,. The last plan before been replace by subway was to service UTSC, Malvern and interline with Sheppard Line, as well servicing a few other location.
 
The original plan back in the 70''s/80's was to have streetcars going to Malvern and most likely pass UTSC as I have never seen a real detail map for that extension,. The last plan before been replace by subway was to service UTSC, Malvern and interline with Sheppard Line, as well servicing a few other location.

I'm really struggling to picture streetcars trundling around in Scarborough...but then again, apparently there was even a plan at some point to run them along the Kingsway!
 
I'm really struggling to picture streetcars trundling around in Scarborough...but then again, apparently there was even a plan at some point to run them along the Kingsway!
Well a long time ago there was the Toronto & Scarboro Radial Railway which ran from Kingston Road and Queen to what is today Morningside and Lawrence.
EOA22IqXUAAy4bY.jpg
 
Well a long time ago there was the Toronto & Scarboro Radial Railway which ran from Kingston Road and Queen to what is today Morningside and Lawrence.
View attachment 302891
Note that the streetcar/radial car is on its own right-of-way, separate from the traffic lane or lanes. When they were forced to provide more spacious traffic lanes, they took the real estate from the right-of-way and turned it over to the automobile.
 
Note that the streetcar/radial car is on its own right-of-way, separate from the traffic lane or lanes. When they were forced to provide more spacious traffic lanes, they took the real estate from the right-of-way and turned it over to the automobile.

Toronto & Scarboro Radial Railway service ended in 1936; the street traffic was very light at that time.

The streetcars had their own right-of-way because it was easier to build and maintain rails not covered by asphalt. Not to protect the streetcars from then-nonexistent traffic jams.
 
I'm sorry but how is this, ⬇️

View attachment 302725

Higher capacity than this. ⬇️

View attachment 302726

Sorry, I misread. Was comparing the LRT plan to the current RT.

I'd still maintain the LRT offered more flexibility, especially if there needed to be any street level expansion. I also question if the reconfiguration would've resulted in Skytrain level capacity.
 
Clearly you don't understand construction and equipment cost as well construction timeline.

Cost to rebuilt the tunnel is about $200 plus millions and will require over a year to build to meet X replacement.

Cost of building a new Mark I that will cover design and building a car at about $8-10 million/ car since only 36 -40 cars will be needed. Even going to 50 will not reduce the cost very much. It took 3 years to get 36 cars out of Kingston and how will that be impacted with Vancouver order?? Who else will buy these new Mark I other than Detroit if they keep the system which is not looking good??

What is the cost to bring stations up today standards with elevators?? What is the time frame to do it?? What about the guideway???

Other than an extension to Malvern, where do you think the line can be built to???

An LRT line can be interline with other lines and can be built with more options than the SRT. An LRV can carry more riders than the RT on day one and can be extended as needed to meet future ridership.

Outside Vancouver, who has the largest system and how many systems worldwide??? How many systems worldwide using LRT/tram systems??

TTC Doesn't Like Orphan Systems, considering this was force on them by the government and prefer a streetcar line like it did in the 70's/80's when they plan the line.

Kennedy station has to be rebuilt and there will be no time saving transferring from the RT or X like it is today.

You are looking at about 2027 for the new Mark I up and running and it is the same time line for an LRT System to Malvern.

No one here including me know the real breakdown where riders go once they hit Kennedy as well the percentage of those numbers. The same apply to STC. TTC made have some numbers and if so, they have never shown it to the public.

Speed...Speed...only matter to long haul riders and most riders are short distance riders who use slower speed systems.
Clearly you don't understand the math here? The tunnel can cost $200 million to rebuild and the cars can be built for $500 million ish, there you go $700 million vs. the over billion dollar cost of the LRT? Adding elevators is not going to cost on the order of 100's of millions. Which as we have discussed ad nauseum would use inferior vehicles which would easily be thrown down the middle of a road and slowed down.

I don't know why an "LRV" can carry more people than the RT, as Coolstar pointed out the RT vehicles carry more people per unit length, so unless you plan on building longer platforms for your LRT (which would make the comparison unfair) then the capacity would be higher on the RT.

Just because the system doesn't exist in a TON of other cities doesn't mean it needs to be dumped, given the grades on the SRT you could probably get rid of the LIMs but again its not strictly necessary. That being said there are LIM metro systems in a number of cities in Asia, and of course we have the SkyTrain.

Finally, there is no reason you need to wait until 2027 to fix the RT, we could have done it years ago and we could still do it now, if only . . .
 
I don't believe the tunnel figure. That tunnel is 400 feet long, 1/13 of a mile. If shallow, existing cut and cover tunnels now cost 2.6 billion dollars per mile to widen by a foot or two, Toronto is even more trouble with engineering projects than I thought.
 
I don't believe the tunnel figure. That tunnel is 400 feet long, 1/13 of a mile. If shallow, existing cut and cover tunnels now cost 2.6 billion dollars per mile to widen by a foot or two, Toronto is even more trouble with engineering projects than I thought.
Most of the cost in the original $190 million estimate the TTC made in 2006 when they recommended doing this was for extending the existing platforms, and replacing the Kennedy platform, with one at ground surface, just east of the existing GO platform.

Though I don't think that's the point - not matter how absurdly high cost estimates one makes for upgrading the system for Mark 2/3 - it's still a pittance compared to the (and I haven't got the number handy) $5 billion that the subway is now costing.

Alternatively - nothing precludes TTC issuing a tender for cars that are compatible for the existing system. The argument here that wasn't possible because it's a propriety system has been destroyed by Translink doing an open tender for their most recent batch of cars.
 
Clearly you don't understand the math here? The tunnel can cost $200 million to rebuild and the cars can be built for $500 million ish, there you go $700 million vs. the over billion dollar cost of the LRT? Adding elevators is not going to cost on the order of 100's of millions. Which as we have discussed ad nauseum would use inferior vehicles which would easily be thrown down the middle of a road and slowed down.

I don't know why an "LRV" can carry more people than the RT, as Coolstar pointed out the RT vehicles carry more people per unit length, so unless you plan on building longer platforms for your LRT (which would make the comparison unfair) then the capacity would be higher on the RT.

Just because the system doesn't exist in a TON of other cities doesn't mean it needs to be dumped, given the grades on the SRT you could probably get rid of the LIMs but again its not strictly necessary. That being said there are LIM metro systems in a number of cities in Asia, and of course we have the SkyTrain.

Finally, there is no reason you need to wait until 2027 to fix the RT, we could have done it years ago and we could still do it now, if only . . .
Mind you the lrt cost includes a northeastward extension, though I've heard that extending and upgrading the rt in it's current state would be just about as expensive as the whole lrt projet, so why not just do that given the higher capacity, comfort, and less service disruptions that comes with the upgraded rt
 
Mind you the lrt cost includes a northeastward extension, though I've heard that extending and upgrading the rt in it's current state would be just about as expensive as the whole lrt projet, so why not just do that given the higher capacity, comfort, and less service disruptions that comes with the upgraded rt
Not to mention upgrading the RT has less of a risk of corner cutting that can significantly reduce service like an LRT. By replacing it with an RT with an LRT, any politician in the future can neuter service by making an extension that runs in the median of the roadway, basically hampering any possibility of 90s headways + automation. Ottawa has a very similar problem with their LRT, the entire line supports automation and can theoretically reach 90s headways, but because its a low floor LRT, a new mayor or government can come in, turn OTrain Phase 3 into an at-grade median LRT into Kanata and Barrhaven, and absolutely reek havoc onto the entire network.
 
Not to mention upgrading the RT has less of a risk of corner cutting that can significantly reduce service like an LRT. By replacing it with an RT with an LRT, any politician in the future can neuter service by making an extension that runs in the median of the roadway, basically hampering any possibility of 90s headways + automation. Ottawa has a very similar problem with their LRT, the entire line supports automation and can theoretically reach 90s headways, but because its a low floor LRT, a new mayor or government can come in, turn OTrain Phase 3 into an at-grade median LRT into Kanata and Barrhaven, and absolutely reek havoc onto the entire network.

They were talking about the RT needing to be changed, upgraded, or replaced back before 2006. Now you want them to discuss the same things all over again? Were you in kindergarten back then and were more interested about cartoons of TV?

See link.
 
They were talking about the RT needing to be changed, upgraded, or replaced back before 2006. Now you want them to discuss the same things all over again? Were you in kindergarten back then and were more interested about cartoons of TV?

See link.
I'm just getting sick of this romanticism of Transit City as this "greatest plan to ever exist". The same people who will yell at the Fords for replacing a perfectly adequate grade separated LRT with a way more expensive Subway, will also turn away from the fact that Miller did the exact same thing to SRT refurbishment several years prior with his Scarborough LRT plan. SSE is happening, shovels should be in the ground this year and there is nothing anyone can do to change that. If people will still bring up the topic of the Scarborough LRT even now, I have no issue bringing up Scarborough RT refurbishment.
 
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I'm just getting sick of this romanticism of Transit City as this "greatest plan to ever exist". The same people who will yell at the Fords for replacing a perfectly adequate grade separated LRT with a way more expensive Subway, will also turn away from the fact that Miller did the exact same thing to SRT refurbishment several years prior with his Scarborough LRT plan. SSE is happening, shovels should be in the ground this year and there is nothing anyone can do to change that. If people will still bring up the topic of the Scarborough LRT even now, I have no issue bringing up Scarborough RT refurbishment.

The funny part about people bringing up the "This was supposed to be an LRT!" historical argument is that if you want to go back in time, the original, original plan for the Scarborough transit line was to be a subway.

When the Scarborough Town Centre was opened in 1973, what was then the Borough of Scarborough hoped that the shopping mall and neighbouring civic buildings would become the core of its new downtown. However, with Metro Council only just voting that the eastern terminus of the BLOOR-DANFORTH subway be extended to Kennedy and Eglinton Avenues, there was still a gap of miles between the end of mass transit and the beginning of Scarborough's downtown dreams. Scarborough officials wanted a further extension of the subway, but the TTC looked at the costs involved and decided that a cheaper project was needed.

The history will show as

Subway > LRT (using TTC streetcars) > ICTS RT > LRT > Subway.

So really, we are getting now what was always originally the plan.

This bit of history always seems to be omitted by some *COUGH* Steve Munro *COUGH* who always whines that the entire project was supposed to be an LRT in the first place so the LRT is the right way to go.
 
The funny part about people bringing up the "This was supposed to be an LRT!" historical argument is that if you want to go back in time, the original, original plan for the Scarborough transit line was to be a subway.



The history will show as

Subway > LRT (using TTC streetcars) > ICTS RT > LRT > Subway.

So really, we are getting now what was always originally the plan.

This bit of history always seems to be omitted by some *COUGH* Steve Munro *COUGH* who always whines that the entire project was supposed to be an LRT in the first place so the LRT is the right way to go.
You cannot deny the cost of the subway back then though. The extension to Kennedy alone costed $71.4 Million (remember this is the late 60's/early 70's). Thats $71.4 Million for one station and 2.5km of tunnel. By comparison the extensions of the BD to Woodbine and Keele from the original BD plan which only had the line going from St.George to Greenwood cost $60 Million. Thats $60 Million for 5km of track and 10 stations only a decade prior. The cost of subway construction was already ballooning out of control by the 70's and a further extension of the BD to STC would have easily cost near or over $100 Million. Nobody on Metro was going to pay that and Scarborough would have and did balk at the cost since they would have likely had to bare the brunt of the municipal contribution. As well the Province by this point seemed to have shown no interest in pitching in any extra money for the Kennedy and Kipling extensions beyond what was already contributed. Yes it is true that Scarborough at first wanted the subway to STC and there is no denying it, however nobody, not even Scarborough was willing to pay for it. If only 2.5Km of tunnel costed $71.4 Million, imagine how much another 4-5km of tunnel would have costed (assuming a further extension would be tunneled and not use the rail corridor the RT does).
 

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