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TTC: Scarborough Subway Extension (formerly LRT replacement) (City of Toronto, Design Phase)

syn

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I consider it to be mediocre. Outside of York U and Finch West, all those stations are underperforming.
Yeah I can't really see those as great numbers. They're right about where I expected.

Vaughan should improve as the area develops, but 14,790 for a terminal station isn't very impressive.
 

Streety McCarface

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I consider it to be mediocre. Outside of York U and Finch West, all those stations are underperforming.
The only 2 stations underperforming are 407 and Downsview Park (Finch West and PV have the same ridership). VMC is definitely overperforming (expectations were that the two stations combined would get 3K PPD, VMC is getting closer to 15K since the last count, likely more before COVID).

Even with all things considered, 407 and Downsview Park can't really be compared to the rest of the network.
Downsview Park's ridership is heavily dependent on RER and its implementation. It was built for a future use.

407 Ridership is heavily dependent on the construction of the 407 transitway. It's also worth noting that the station itself isn't actually that eccentric, it's the bus terminal that's huge, and unfortunately, it sort of has to be. GO's needs for its terminals are far different than the TTC's. You're going to be waiting for a bus for quite a significant amount of time (perhaps up to half an hour, maybe more). You require ticket agents, waiting space, queue space, many bays for long dwell times, and lots of layover space. Unfortunately, you needed a huge bus terminal.
Yeah I can't really see those as great numbers. They're right about where I expected.

Vaughan should improve as the area develops, but 14,790 for a terminal station isn't very impressive.
Take away the Sheppard West Bus Terminal, the Wilson Bus Terminal, the Kipling Bus Terminal, the Don Mills Bus Terminal, or even the Kennedy Bus terminal, and ridership goes to the toilet. VMC has the disadvantage of losing transfer ridership to PV (TTC and YRT), YorkU (Brampton ZUM), and 407 (GO). YRT service at VMC is poor at best, and there's a transfer disadvantage.

Context is everything.
 

syn

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The only 2 stations underperforming are 407 and Downsview Park (Finch West and PV have the same ridership). VMC is definitely overperforming (expectations were that the two stations combined would get 3K PPD, VMC is getting closer to 15K since the last count, likely more before COVID).

Even with all things considered, 407 and Downsview Park can't really be compared to the rest of the network.
Downsview Park's ridership is heavily dependent on RER and its implementation. It was built for a future use.

407 Ridership is heavily dependent on the construction of the 407 transitway. It's also worth noting that the station itself isn't actually that eccentric, it's the bus terminal that's huge, and unfortunately, it sort of has to be. GO's needs for its terminals are far different than the TTC's. You're going to be waiting for a bus for quite a significant amount of time (perhaps up to half an hour, maybe more). You require ticket agents, waiting space, queue space, many bays for long dwell times, and lots of layover space. Unfortunately, you needed a huge bus terminal.

Take away the Sheppard West Bus Terminal, the Wilson Bus Terminal, the Kipling Bus Terminal, the Don Mills Bus Terminal, or even the Kennedy Bus terminal, and ridership goes to the toilet. VMC has the disadvantage of losing transfer ridership to PV (TTC and YRT), YorkU (Brampton ZUM), and 407 (GO). YRT service at VMC is poor at best, and there's a transfer disadvantage.

Context is everything.
Oh I completely agree. Yet another great example of why building stations where they're needed is a much better idea than lower-ridership suburban extensions.

I'd also say Kipling isn't a great example. The next two stops on the way (Islington and Royal York) also have high ridership.
 

ARG1

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Oh I completely agree. Yet another great example of why building stations where they're needed is a much better idea than lower-ridership suburban extensions.

I'd also say Kipling isn't a great example. The next two stops on the way (Islington and Royal York) also have high ridership.
Did you read what he wrote? He was talking about how despite the low ridership of those 2 stations, their existence is justified...
 

Steve X

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Oh I completely agree. Yet another great example of why building stations where they're needed is a much better idea than lower-ridership suburban extensions.

I'd also say Kipling isn't a great example. The next two stops on the way (Islington and Royal York) also have high ridership.
Kipling is one of the best terminal in the system in terms of subway to bus platform connectivity. With the bus terminal being directly above the subway platform, there are multiple access between the platform the the terminal plus a single elevator ride. Of course Lawrence East would be the most ideal with the Kennedy-bound platform directly leveled with the bus terminal.
 

WislaHD

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For VMC, definitely. 407 is actually mainly GO bus riders and, surprisingly, pedestrians. People going to the industrial areas along Exchange/Peeler or to the businesses at Peeler and Jane.

2018 numbers for the station, prior to full GO Bus integration:
VMC — 14,790
407 — 3,440
So they were already at about 18K. Ever since the GO buses started serving 407 (and prior to COVID), I'd say ridership is closer to the following:
VMC — 17K PPD, mainly from the improved VIVA connections/frequency, additional density at the station, and additional passenger drop-offs.
407 — At least 5K, probably closer to 7K. During peak hours, almost every train had at least 30 people getting on and off, and off-peak, there were always 2-3. On Fridays, you could easily add 2-3K people using the station.
Colour me impressed! Especially since this is pre-development of the sub-centre.

The developers will continue with their aggressive densification of VMC, so I am really not too worried about that. Even Hwy-407 stop has quite a bit of development potential to the west of the station, subject to Infrastructure Ontario's pipeline.

This line is built already so there is no point in dwelling on it.
 

syn

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Did you read what he wrote? He was talking about how despite the low ridership of those 2 stations, their existence is justified...
Yes I know. I'm saying the low ridership makes it clear it wasn't a good idea to build a subway extension there now.

Building giant suburban extensions and ignoring the core system for about 5 decades is the reason we have such a massive predicament on our hands.
 

Northern Light

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kali

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Could we get a situation where the tunneling contracts close, tunneling starts, but Ford is voted out and no other work is tendered for these lines?
 

ARG1

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Could we get a situation where the tunneling contracts close, tunneling starts, but Ford is voted out and no other work is tendered for these lines?
I think theoretically yes, but that would be one of the most idiotic decisions ever done by the provincial government, probably even moreso than Mike Harris filling up Eglinton West station with concrete. Don't forget that the liberals were the ones that pushed the idea of a Scarborough subway extension in the first place, all Ford did was change it from being a 6km 1 stop extension, to a more reasonable 8km 3 stop extension. There is simply no reason for the liberals to try and stop this after boring took place unless they are really desperate to stop Doug Ford's plans.
 

Coolstar

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rbt

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Could we get a situation where the tunneling contracts close, tunneling starts, but Ford is voted out and no other work is tendered for these lines?
Ford won't be voted out unless he does something incredibly foolish.

But yeah, we could have a situation where a tunnel exists and no government wants to fund the other 85% of the work. Eglinton West, even with the tunnel built (and removed from expenses), has a terrible business case.
 

kali

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