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TTC: Post: Seating on new buses and TTC souvenirs

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Rear seating on new buses makes Moscoe uncomfortable
TTC chairman wants to give riders more room


James Cowan, National Post
Published: Friday, September 15, 2006

TTC chairman Howard Moscoe promises efforts are underway to address two common gripes about the transit system: the quality of its merchandise and crowded seating on its new buses.

In a letter to his fellow transit commissioners released yesterday, Mr. Moscoe proposes reconfiguring the seats at the back of the TTC's new low-floor Orion buses. Mr. Moscoe states the seats, crowded on a raised platform above the rear wheels, are "impossibly constrained and uncomfortable."

"It's been a disaster," Mr. Moscoe told reporters yesterday. "You can't see if seats are available on the platform, that's the first thing that's wrong, and secondly, they're jammed together so you can't get a comfortable seat unless your legs are two inches long."

The low-floor buses, designed to accommodate wheelchairs in their front section, were introduced in 2003. There are more than 500 on the street with 320 scheduled to be added to the fleet in 2007 and an additional 148 in 2008.

Gary Webster, the TTC's acting chief general manager, admitted staff made mistakes when they designed the buses.

"We have to recognize that we went too far," Mr. Webster said. "The seats are too tight and a lot of members of the public can't use them."

Mr. Webster said it is difficult to move seats on existing vehicles but the problem can likely be solved before additional buses are built.

"We can't easily reconfigure the seats without disturbing the heat ducts below and exposing what's below," Mr. Webster said. "There isn't anything we can do to retrofit what we have, so what we're talking is our next orders."

The solution could involve adjusting the layout of seats or making them thinner, Mr. Moscoe said. "I think we might be able to do it without reducing seats by re-engineering the upper deck."

Mr. Moscoe also addressed complaints the T-shirts and other paraphernalia available at the new TTC store in Union Station are unoriginal and uninspiring. Noting the store does not officially open for another two weeks, Mr. Moscoe promised there is a new generation of TTC tchotchkes on the way.

"I believe there's a whole wide range of new products just waiting for TTC approval," Mr. Moscoe said.

The councillor was less optimistic about the future of bike racks on TTC buses. A report from TTC staff released yesterday noted a maximum of 20 people daily used the rack on the Dufferin bus as part of a recent pilot project. The report notes the number of users represented a tiny portion of the 43,300 people who rode the bus each day. "I'm still thinking about that one," Mr. Moscoe said.

The TTC also announced yesterday it has experienced an increase in transit pass forgery over the past four months. Since July, 120 people have been charged with fraud and other offences for either using or selling a fake Metropass.

Staff Sergeant Mark Russell of TTC Special Investigations said the forgeries are "high quality" but can be identified because their magnetic strips do not function. He said the passes have been sold in workplaces, on college campuses and across the Internet.
 
Thanks for posting but wow! Breaking News! Orion VIIs are craptastic - largely due to the interior layout, especially the upper area. Duh! (And they had three years to figure this out?!)

The seats above the wheelwell are awful.
 
The seats at the back aren't that bad - the overwhelming majority of people fit into them without complaint - but it's next to impossible to get people to stand back there, and if they do, it's next to impossible to get out of your seat when you need to leave.
 
The t-shirt dude at Yonge and Dundas sells counterfeit TTC subway map shirts. I guess there's a demand. Personally, I liked his Zidane headbutt shirts.
 
When I take the 196 to work at York I always wait for an Orion V or New Look.
 
The seats at the back aren't that bad

I don't think so. The seats lack leg room. The first two rows of seats behind the rear doors are okay, since you get a bird's eye view over the front of the bus (the seats in the first row are actually my favourite seats), but the last two rows are terrible, since the second row of seats (over the wheelwell) blocks your view of the front of the bus. The middle seat in the last row at the back (the raised one with the yellow armrests) is particularly bad... it's like a baby booster seat!

I'd imagine the best way to reconfigure the seats is to somehow turn the seats from pairs into benches along the sides, just like on most other buses in the fleet.
 
^ Then not only will no one stand up there, some seats will be removed.
 
^ Then not only will no one stand up there, some seats will be removed.

Not true. The New Flyer Low Floors (circa 1999,2000) have perimeter seating for the last two rows. I see a lot of people standing in the back on a crowded day because there is a lot more space to move around if someone is trying to get on or off. As for the Orion 7s, if you stand toward the back, chances are you will be blocking someone from getting off.
 
How much room is really back there on those perimeter-seated buses? I think I've been on some in Kitchener/Waterloo but not Toronto. What routes do they usually run on here? If the stairs aren't wider, I can still imagine blockage problems due to people's propensity to stand right there in front of both the stairs and the door even when the bus isn't crunched full...I guess that extra little bit of room makes them stand at the back instead.

The current model gets really useless on the Yonge night bus, when three or four passed out guys manage to occupy the entire upper area, forcing people to actually push in and touch each other rather than risk being left on the sidewalk.
 
The last time I was on a NFI D40LF, it was in Mississauga. Both MT and BT have the same set up with double row seating as the TTC Orion VIIs, except with some perimter seating at the far back. Though except on MT 19, they don't normally fill up to a crush load. On a route like 96 Wilson, or 35 Jane, the buses WILL fill up on a weekend where they will leave passengers waiting. The TTC used to have the D40LFs on the 192.

The NFs are better buses. Better seating configuration (with inward facing seats at the rear door, for example. Orion VIIs are not suited to the high-traffic TTC routes. Period.
 
"Orion VIIs are not suited to the high-traffic TTC routes. Period."

They cause an inordinate amount of time to be wasted at stops on the 190 during afternoon rush hour when 30+ people can be waiting to get on while people try to push their way out from the back...streams of boarders and disembarkers fight for dominance on the stairs.
 
The seating arrangement of the back of the new MT buses is a lot better than with the new TTC buses and there is certainly a lot more standing room but still not many people actually stand at the back as far as I can see. I guess there are a lot of reasons for this... the smaller windows, the lower ceiling, the stairs... People have always tended to stand newar the front but it is much worse with these new buses.

I think since MT and TTC both have so much overcrowding problems they should be using buses that are 100% low floor instead of 70% low floor to avoid this problem.
 
I think since MT and TTC both have so much overcrowding problems they should be using buses that are 100% low floor instead of 70% low floor to avoid this problem.

I don't know what New Flyer offers, but the 100% low floor Orions they put on MT route 3 are even worse. It always seems like half the bus has to stand due to the wasted space and the doors all the way at the back can be really hard to reach when it's crowded.
 
That's right. The worst bus ever designed was the Orion VI, the all-low floor bus with the door at the far back. So much wasted space for one thing. Back in high school, I couldn;t get off the packed bus I was on at my stop, and had to ride to the end of the line.
 
When I say the bus has to be completely low floor, I don't mean under the seats as well. The seats can be still be on high floor and the aisle between them can be low floor at the same time. As long as the aisle between the seats is completely low floor then people will stand at the back of the bus.
 

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