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TTC: Other Items (catch all)

Looks like Queensway operators are getting trained on Nova Hybrids. So this would be good use for 203.

They have the capability of running on battery only based on Geo-fencing
In theory, yes, this could be a use case for them. They also have a far greater range before needing to be fueled, so that would solve one of the concerns I laid out above.

They are indeed capable of running only on the battery, and in fact the TTC has enabled it in certain locations such as enclosed bus terminals. But their range on just batteries is only a couple of miles, and so I don't know if it is enough to do a full loop of High Park.

Dan
 
I rarely take TTC as I live in Hamilton, but when I have I've thought about people's fears of crime and safety on TTC. I don't generally support fare free transit, for the reasons outlined by OhTheUrbanity, but Alex Davis made a good video about LA's fare evasion and it made me think of Toronto. Wondering if fare evasion information has been posted here (something I would miss) and what others think. Some key points include, that 96% of people arrested for crimes on Metro did not pay, transit riders support more enforcement and that fare enforcement officers were also responsible for enforcing code of conduct, and therefore less fare enforcement led to less enforcement of the code of conduct on transit.


If you want to see the OhTheUrbanity video if you haven't already:
 
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I rarely take TTC as I live in Hamilton, but when I have I've thought about people's fears of crime and safety on TTC. I don't generally support fare free transit, for the reasons outlined by OhTheUrbanity, but Alex Davis made a good video about LA's fare evasion and it made me think of Toronto. Wondering if fare evasion information has been posted here (something I would miss) and what others think. Some key points include, that 96% of people arrested for crimes on Metro did not pay, transit riders support more enforcement and that fare enforcement officers were also responsible for enforcing code of conduct, and therefore less fare enforcement led to less enforcement of the code of conduct on transit.


If you want to see the OhTheUrbanity video if you haven't already:
But then again, you do have low income and homeless people who are more likely to become debtors and possibly jailed for not paying a fine.
 
But then again, you do have low income and homeless people who are more likely to become debtors and possibly jailed for not paying a fine.
...homeless people don't usually get tickets for fare evasion, they might get invited to leave the premises, if that... And even if they got a ticket for fare evasion and did not pay, how would the city collect this debt? Someone without a fixed address will not get hit by debt collectors harassing them over mail and phone... The fines are to deter those integrated with society. If you have nothing to lose, they're unlikely to fine you, even less likely to attempt collection, much less actually collect.

"What could happen if I do not pay a court fine on time?"

Also, this notion that you can be jailed for not paying a fare evasion fine is completely false.

Fare evasion is under Part I of the POA and governed by a municipal transfer agreement. In this case, it would be doubly incorrect for someone to be jailed, even as a last resort.

"As noted previously, imprisonment for unpaid fines is not truly available in Ontario today since subsection 165(3) of the POA precludes this enforcement option once municipalities have entered into transfer agreements with the Province. Agreements are now in place throughout Ontario, and therefore, imprisonment is unavailable as an enforcement tool to municipalities for unpaid fines. In fact, no one was imprisoned for non-payment of a fine in recent years, based on data from the Ministry of the Attorney General for 2007 and 2008.340 [...]

We further note a Supreme Court of Canada decision that said genuine inability to pay a fine is not a proper basis for imprisonment.378 Where a person is unable to pay a fine, a justice may grant an extension of time, establish a schedule of payments, or in exceptional circumstances, reduce the fine.379 [...]

54. Section 12 of the POA states that imprisonment is not available for a proceeding commenced under Part I. Furthermore, while subsection 69(14) does allow for the incarceration of a person who does not pay a fine in limited circumstances (i.e., where person is able to pay the fine and incarcertation would not be contrary to the public interest), it is not truly available in Ontario." (emphasis mine)

Modernization of the Provincial Offences Act FINAL REPORT August 2011
 
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But then again, you do have low income and homeless people who are more likely to become debtors and possibly jailed for not paying a fine.
As mentioned in the video, I really like the way LA deals with this. Homeless people should get a fine, but in LA you cannot go to jail for not paying the fine, and if you can't pay the fine the alternative of community service is provided.

I personally believe many of our own fines are way too low (fare evasion notwithstanding) and I think a big fear is exactly that, hurting low income folks with fines (the fact the broke the law be damned I suppose). With the alternative of community service you can avoid them become debtors but still enforce rules on them.

I also don't believe it's low income folks perpetrating many crimes when enforcement is done.

In Hamilton where I live for example, road rules have essentially become unenforced and as a result the roads have become a nightmare. Red lights are stopped or slowed at and then people proceed left through the red, I've seen people not even press the brake at stop signs, right on red where disallowed is rampant, speeding 20-30 over the limit is common. When you have absolutely zero enforcement of the perception of zero enforcement you see people act in a way they know they won't be punished.
 
In Hamilton where I live for example, road rules have essentially become unenforced and as a result the roads have become a nightmare. Red lights are stopped or slowed at and then people proceed left through the red, I've seen people not even press the brake at stop signs, right on red where disallowed is rampant, speeding 20-30 over the limit is common. When you have absolutely zero enforcement of the perception of zero enforcement you see people act in a way they know they won't be punished.
Policing is a joke these days, and now more than ever screams for reform. We need less aggro thugs in kevlar driving the streets looking for homeless and minorities to harass and more community safety, more compassion, more accountability and regular 3rd party (non-police) evaluation and investigation of force(s). And we seriously need to get rid of paid duty police.

It used to be any old patrol vehicle would stop a traffic violation they witnessed. Nowadays, I watch violations all the time in clear view of police. I've seen drivers blow past streetcar doors in clear view of a cop driving the opposite direction, who did nothing but laugh. Enforcement was the duty of every member of the force. Now, if a cop isn't specifically posted to enforcement, they don't care.
 
Policing is a joke these days, and now more than ever screams for reform. We need less aggro thugs in kevlar driving the streets looking for homeless and minorities to harass and more community safety, more compassion, more accountability and regular 3rd party (non-police) evaluation and investigation of force(s). And we seriously need to get rid of paid duty police.

It used to be any old patrol vehicle would stop a traffic violation they witnessed. Nowadays, I watch violations all the time in clear view of police. I've seen drivers blow past streetcar doors in clear view of a cop driving the opposite direction, who did nothing but laugh. Enforcement was the duty of every member of the force. Now, if a cop isn't specifically posted to enforcement, they don't care.
At least in Toronto they still have *any* enforcement. When I say Hamilton has none, I mean literally almost none.

Anyway, back to the point being made in the video. I feel that they make a really good point about the "randomness" of fare checks rather than watching people at the fare gates. It's simple psychology. People will pay while being watched, but skip payment if they know nobody is there and once in they won't be checked, whereas random checks mean not paying at the fare gate could be checked at any time, and by the time you see the inspector it's too late.

Like I said, I think this should be balances with fine price and code of conduct enforcement too. Like the fine in LA is $75, vs on the TTC I'm pretty sure last I read it's like $200. They should lower the fine (or just not raise it) and check more often. The city should look to LA and instead of not enforcing the fine on people who look like they can't pay, they should be given community service. I actually think that "penalty" might improve homelessness and drug addiction issues? I might be wrong, but in my mind it's a good way to provide some sense of responsibility into someone who might be struggling to build that skill without resorting to prison and essentially slave labour. Community service is far more appropriate.

I really like the suggestions made in the video and I think they make sense. Like the video creator, I'm a progressive, but not an ideologue. If a policy is a good one, but runs against my ideology I can support it. I think that more balanced approach to policy and social services is sometimes lacking due to political polarity and a desire to be pure in ideological thought on these matters.
 
At least in Toronto they still have *any* enforcement. When I say Hamilton has none, I mean literally almost none.

I'm gonna bring this up, though it's not a competition; it's an indication of overall systemic failure within policing.

You say there's enforcement here, but when I first started walking my daughter to school, I pointed out a corner (Church & Bloor St. E.) we pass and how dangerous the drivers at it are. I told her to watch this corner, and every single time there'll be someone doing something wrong.

To this date (she'll be 14 in the fall), I've seen a violation at that corner every single time since when there are cars. Whether it's using the bike lane as a turning lane, rushing the advance green after it's stopped, encroaching into the crosswalk while people are there or blatantly running reds, there's always something. There's no meaningful enforcement here.

There used to be patrol vehicles regularly stationed on nearby St. Paul's Square waiting to catch violators. They were there so often, I literally wondered if there weren't a small police outpost inside 160 Bloor St. E. That enforcement however stopped a long, long time ago.

Church & Bloor St. E. certainly isn't the busiest intersection in the city; but it's one with a lot of pedestrians and cyclists and a lot of potential for injury. It's such an easy target for enforcement, and the police used to know that. Now, it's a free for all.

Enforcement only seems to happen when the police run an "educational blitz", or are forced by city hall.

Anyway, back to the point being made in the video. I feel that they make a really good point about the "randomness" of fare checks rather than watching people at the fare gates. It's simple psychology. People will pay while being watched, but skip payment if they know nobody is there and once in they won't be checked, whereas random checks mean not paying at the fare gate could be checked at any time, and by the time you see the inspector it's too late.

If we're not going to make the entire system free (honestly, all public services should be free to use), then by all means increase the number of inspectors. And there have been improvements in that department here. I've seen more fare inspectors in the last year than I have in the previous 5 years combined. But as with everything to do with the TTC and decades of a lack of meaningful operating subsidies, it ultimately comes down to budget. Can they afford to put as many fare inspectors out as they probably want to? I dunno about that. And then there's just finding the people willing to deal with the growing level of harassment towards TTC employees in general.

Like I said, I think this should be balances with fine price and code of conduct enforcement too. Like the fine in LA is $75, vs on the TTC I'm pretty sure last I read it's like $200. They should lower the fine (or just not raise it) and check more often. The city should look to LA and instead of not enforcing the fine on people who look like they can't pay, they should be given community service. I actually think that "penalty" might improve homelessness and drug addiction issues? I might be wrong, but in my mind it's a good way to provide some sense of responsibility into someone who might be struggling to build that skill without resorting to prison and essentially slave labour. Community service is far more appropriate.

In reality, we should enforce progressive fines, rather than just lower them overall; though I agree with community service as an alternative to paying.

If we use parking violations as an example, there will be people who can afford the fines, but choose just to not go to the trouble of following the law. If it's an inconvenience in any way, someone will create justifications as to why they shouldn't have to do it, regardless of their income level. That and some people are just plain cheap a-holes (see; just about every person I've known with an MBA).
 
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I'm gonna bring this up, though it's not a competition; it's an indication of overall systemic failure within policing.

You say there's enforcement here, but when I first started walking my daughter to school, I pointed out a corner (Church & Bloor St. E.) we pass and how dangerous the drivers at it are. I told her to watch this corner, and every single time there'll be someone doing something wrong.

To this date (she'll be 14 in the fall), I've seen a violation at that corner every single time since when there are cars. Whether it's using the bike lane as a turning lane, rushing the advance green after it's stopped, encroaching into the crosswalk while people are there or blatantly running reds, there's always something. There's no meaningful enforcement here.

There used to be patrol vehicles regularly stationed on nearby St. Paul's Square waiting to catch violators. They were there so often, I literally wondered if there weren't a small police outpost inside 160 Bloor St. E. That enforcement however stopped a long, long time ago.

Church & Bloor St. E. certainly isn't the busiest intersection in the city; but it's one with a lot of pedestrians and cyclists and a lot of potential for injury. It's such an easy target for enforcement, and the police used to know that. Now, it's a free for all.

Enforcement only seems to happen when the police run an "educational blitz", or are forced by city hall.



If we're not going to make the entire system free (honestly, all public services should be free to use), then by all means increase the number of inspectors. And there have been improvements in that department here. I've seen more fare inspectors in the last year than I have in the previous 5 years combined. But as with everything to do with the TTC and decades of a lack of meaningful operating subsidies, it ultimately comes down to budget. Can they afford to put as many fare inspectors out as they probably want to? I dunno about that. And then there's just finding the people willing to deal with the growing level of harassment towards TTC employees in general.



In reality, we should enforce progressive fines, rather than just lower them overall; though I agree with community service as an alternative to paying.

If we use parking violations as an example, there will be people who can afford the fines, but choose just to not go to the trouble of following the law. If it's an inconvenience in any way, someone will create justifications as to why they shouldn't have to do it, regardless of their income level. That and some people are just plain cheap a-holes (see; just about every person I've known with an MBA).
I've seen people actually be pulled over by Toronto police numerous times and I got to Toronto once or twice a year. I live in Hamilton and have never seen anyone pulled over in 5 years. I've seen cars travelling on a one-way travel on the sidewalk to get around a police vehicle travelling the correct direction. There is literally no enforcement in Hamilton at all. Even when we had speed cameras. Toronto had 150, while Hamilton had 4, we were about to up it to 6 I think.

With regard to penalties, I also support progressive fines dependant on income (assuming this is what you meant), but I don't think that'll be happening anytime soon. I just don't think there's enough appetite for it. The people pushing for fines are the more conservative people, and they won't support fining higher income people more for the most part, and the most supportive of progressive fining are just generally against fines altogether.

Fines that increase with each penalty are also a thing I agree with. Second penalty should be higher than first. But more often than not, first penalty is enough for most people.
 
It's not hypocritical to ban cars while allowing diesel buses. It's still green, and there are benefits for having a park without cars.
It is green... burning fossil fuels promotes increased CO2 into the atmosphere, which promotes more trees and vegetation to grow, which increases the amount of O2. It also tends to warm up the atmosphere and given we are slowly creeping back into an ice age is also good. Its win-win for everyone. Over the past 50 years,the amount of trees and de-desertification thats been happening around the world is pretty remarkable.

Dont believe everything you hear
 
Some small help for the TTC...

From https://www.canada.ca/en/housing-infrastructure-communities/news/2026/03/building-stronger-communities-in-toronto.html

Building Stronger Communities in Toronto​


Our communities can only grow to support more housing when there are investments in foundational infrastructure projects – like public transit, water systems, and local roads and bridges. With today’s announcement, the first through the new Build Communities Strong Fund, that is exactly what the Government of Canada is delivering on.

Today, the Honourable Gregor Robertson, Minister of Housing and Infrastructure and Minister responsible for Pacific Economic Development Canada, Jennifer McKelvie, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Housing and Infrastructure, Her Worship Olivia Chow, Mayor of the City of Toronto, and Michael Atlas, General Counsel of the Toronto Transit Commission, announced a federal investment of over $183 million to the City of Toronto for the 2025-26 fiscal year through what will be the Community stream of the Build Communities Strong Fund.
Through the allocation announced today, the Government of Canada is helping to improve transit and make it more accessible through projects like the Toronto Transit Commission’s Easier Access Program which will upgrade subway stations with elevators, accessible doors, updated signage, and wayfinding.

In the coming weeks, more details will be launched on the Build Communities Strong Fund, which comprises of three major streams:

  • A Provincial and Territorial streamthat will provide $17.2 billion over 10 years to support infrastructure projects and priorities. This includes housing-enabling, health-related infrastructure, and infrastructure at colleges and universities.
    • From this stream, $5 billion over three years will be dedicated specifically to health infrastructure funding, upgrading health infrastructure such as hospitals, emergency rooms, and urgent care centres.
  • A Direct Delivery stream that will provide $6 billion to support regionally significant projects, climate adaptation, and community infrastructure. This could include clean-energy generation and storage projects, flood protection, and new community and recreational spaces.
  • A Community stream that will provide $27.8 billion for local roads, bridges, water systems, and community centres – getting the basics right and helping towns and cities grow – which will be the existing Canada Community-Building Fund moving under this newly launched fund to help streamline the government’s infrastructure efforts.
Together, we will build Canada strong by strengthening the infrastructure, housing, and public transit that Canadians rely on every day.

“We’re grateful for federal CCBF funding that helps us upgrade the TTC and make our public transit system more accessible and reliable. I’ve made record investments into increasing TTC service levels and making much-needed repairs, without raising fares, and our strong partnership with the Federal government helps us go even further. Together, we’re committed to making public transit more affordable, safe and reliable, which in turn supports more housing and economic growth in our city.”

Her Worship Olivia Chow, Mayor of the City of Toronto
 
Odd that there's fines for "Urinating, expectorating or defecating on TTC property", but nothing for ejaculating.
I’m sure that’s a criminal offence. They can just charge them under the criminal law and it’s enough to arrest them but again, will they do it.
 

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