TTC: Other Items (catch all)

[Admiral Beez]

Edward Keenan: Fare evasion is costing the TTC millions. So why is it looking at reducing the penalties?

With TTC fare evasion now costing an estimated $140 million a year, the time seems right for a new enforcement system.

www.thestar.com

Paywall free: https://archive.is/Aoc0H

IMO the TTC wouldn't need to worry about fare evasion if it wasn't so easy to evade fares.

 

[DSCToronto]

Edward Keenan: Fare evasion is costing the TTC millions. So why is it looking at reducing the penalties?

With TTC fare evasion now costing an estimated $140 million a year, the time seems right for a new enforcement system.

www.thestar.com

Paywall free: https://archive.is/Aoc0H

IMO the TTC wouldn't need to worry about fare evasion if it wasn't so easy to evade fares.

Well....duh. Of course, the TTC could prevent any fare evasion by restricting access to vehicles (e.g. only front door boarding and tapping on at all subways platforms) and could assign ticket inspectors to every bus or streetcar but the question is would the increased cost be covered by the fares received and would the delays in the system be a 'good thing'. Clearly, there needs to be a balance between fare inspection and fare evasion and the TTC clearly need to do more on the inspection side, though it would be really stupid to try to eliminate all fare evasion!

 

[turbanplanner]

Edward Keenan: Fare evasion is costing the TTC millions. So why is it looking at reducing the penalties?

With TTC fare evasion now costing an estimated $140 million a year, the time seems right for a new enforcement system.

www.thestar.com

Paywall free: https://archive.is/Aoc0H

IMO the TTC wouldn't need to worry about fare evasion if it wasn't so easy to evade fares.

How do you fix it on something effectively unmonitored like the streetcar? Also, just my experience but every single bus trip I take at least one person‘s card fails and even though you can use a friggin credit card that doesn’t occur to anybody

 

[evandyk]

On streetcars and buses, making it easy to fill the buses up with people at busy stops (all-door boarding, multiple tapping points, etc.) usually requires the things that make fare evasion easy. But I think doubling or tripling the number of inspectors riding the King and Queen streetcar lines would probably make a large dent in evasion. The frequency of fare checks right now is just laughable. Until recently I was riding the King car multiple times a day most days, and saw a team of inspectors every few weeks at most.

 

[evandyk]

Clearly, there needs to be a balance between fare inspection and fare evasion and the TTC clearly need to do more on the inspection side, though it would be really stupid to try to eliminate all fare evasion!

Yeah... if the streetcar fare evasion rate is really 30% (which I believe, based on personal observations) there must be some low-hanging fruit, but once you collect that, it become probably more expensive to collect more fares than to live with a certain level of fare evasion.

 

[Admiral Beez]

could assign ticket inspectors to every bus or streetcar but the question is would the increased cost be covered by the fares received and would the delays in the system be a 'good thing'.

There's apparently an $124 million spread to to use. Given the added security and safety, the paid ridership may also increase. But whatever the cost, isn't that just an investment in the safety, utility and enjoyment of our city?

How do you fix it on something effectively unmonitored like the streetcar?

You don't have to cover the whole system. Start with significant increase in roving inspectors on the College/Dundas/Queen/King streetcars between University and Sherbourne, shown below.

You fish where the fish are, and this is prime scofflaw hunting ground.

 

[T3G]

A missing piece of the fare evasion puzzle: have they changed the framework that collects the fines for fare evasion so that the money can be collected by the TTC, and not the city? Because if they haven't, I don't see why they should bother with any kind of enforcement at all, honestly.

 

[turbanplanner]

Yeah... if the streetcar fare evasion rate is really 30% (which I believe, based on personal observations) there must be some low-hanging fruit, but once you collect that, it become probably more expensive to collect more fares than to live with a certain level of fare evasion.

It's over 50% depending on the time of day!

 

[Admiral Beez]

A missing piece of the fare evasion puzzle: have they changed the framework that collects the fines for fare evasion so that the money can be collected by the TTC, and not the city? Because if they haven't, I don't see why they should bother with any kind of enforcement at all, honestly.

Do any of these fines ever get paid? There's no point in fining fare evaders who can't pay, any more than fining squatters in our parks.

 

[evandyk]

The money for the TTC is in people paying their fares, not in the fines that are collected. A visible presence encourages people who can pay to do so. Someone who is really not able to afford a TTC fare is obviously not going to afford a fine either.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Yeah... if the streetcar fare evasion rate is really 30% (which I believe, based on personal observations) there must be some low-hanging fruit, but once you collect that, it become probably more expensive to collect more fares than to live with a certain level of fare evasion.

Cost-recovery really isn't the goal for fines anyways - it is to hurt the evaders such that it becomes a deterrent (or non-deterrent, if collection of the fines is ineffective). Frankly it'd be more effective to inconvenience the violator in other ways - the current scheme has very little sting.

AoD

 

[T3G]

The money for the TTC is in people paying their fares, not in the fines that are collected. A visible presence encourages people who can pay to do so. Someone who is really not able to afford a TTC fare is obviously not going to afford a fine either.

Would the money gained by the fear factor really offset the employment costs of all those fare inspectors, though? CTV says they have no less than 110 - that is not a small amount of people to employ. If the TTC is not recovering the costs of this, I question the wisdom of having any fare inspectors at all.

Do any of these fines ever get paid? There's no point in fining fare evaders who can't pay, any more than fining squatters in our parks.

There's lots of financially well off people who also don't pay fares.

 

[evandyk]

Would the money gained by the fear factor really offset the employment costs of all those fare inspectors, though? CTV says they have no less than 110 - that is not a small amount of people to employ. If the TTC is not recovering the costs of this, I question the wisdom of having any fare inspectors at all.

I think that if 30% of people aren't paying, a few more fare inspectors would probably pay for themselves through increased compliance. Though the TTC should have a department of people who could crunch the actual numbers.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Would the money gained by the fear factor really offset the employment costs of all those fare inspectors, though? CTV says they have no less than 110 - that is not a small amount of people to employ. If the TTC is not recovering the costs of this, I question the wisdom of having any fare inspectors at all.

There's lots of financially well off people who also don't pay fares.

Except that if you don't have fare inspectors, you'd be moving to the majority of the riders not paying. The problem here is the ineffectiveness, not the presence of a fare enforcement system.

AoD

 

[Northern Light]

Except that if you don't have fare inspectors, you'd be moving to the majority of the riders not paying. The problem here is the ineffectiveness, not the presence of a fare enforcement system.

AoD

Averaging 1 ticker per week across our ~110 officers................going to zero would represent too deep a cut, but about 4, effective officers would hold us to current (inadequate) quota.

There needs to be a clear direction to enforce; but we do need to change the system to reduce the liklihood of confrontations, while deterring repeat offenders.

This is where moving to a system with a caution/warning on a first offense, provided you cooperate and supply ID etc is good move.......then a modest ticket in line with a typical parking ticket, ~$40 or such.

On a third and subsequent offense, you get a court date in front of JP with the risk of a bench warrant for your arrest if you no show, and the JP being able to lift that fine considerably and issue an enforcement order to collect it (garnishment)