TTC: Other Items (catch all)

[Northern Light]

Only a 10¢ fare increase in the last 7 years? That doesn't even cover this years inflation, let alone 7 years of inflation.

If they'd simply done 2% a year, we'd be at $3.75 instead of $3.35. That would have more than covered the cost of the recent service cuts.

No fare increases is great - but I'd have sooner another 40¢ a trip, compared to less and worse service..

Sure........but from my post on the previous page:

The price of a monthly pass in 1980 would have risen to $94.06 has it risen in line with the Consumer Price Index, as per the Bank of Canada's Inflation Calculator.

As the current pass is $156........

Its gone up a whole lot faster than inflation in my lifetime.

Now, I just looked up the single adult fare from 1981 via Transit Toronto, and have done the same below:

So the fare should have risen to $2.10 per ride, but has instead risen to $3.30 literally more than 50% above inflation.

 

[drum118]

So much for 512 streetcar service in the coming months and years. Looks like no streetcars east of St Clair West station for a few years.

https://ttc-cdn.azureedge.net/-/med...July-12/11_St_Clair_West_Loop_Replacement.pdf

https://ttc-cdn.azureedge.net/-/med...r_Off_Loading_Platform_Utility_Relocation.pdf

 

[turbanplanner]

So much for 512 streetcar service in the coming months and years. Looks like no streetcars east of St Clair West station for a few years.

https://ttc-cdn.azureedge.net/-/med...July-12/11_St_Clair_West_Loop_Replacement.pdf

https://ttc-cdn.azureedge.net/-/med...r_Off_Loading_Platform_Utility_Relocation.pdf

FFS, what percent of the streetcar network has been closed the last decade?

 

[cplchanb]

Sure........but from my post on the previous page:

The price of a monthly pass in 1980 would have risen to $94.06 has it risen in line with the Consumer Price Index, as per the Bank of Canada's Inflation Calculator.

As the current pass is $156........

Its gone up a whole lot faster than inflation in my lifetime.

Now, I just looked up the single adult fare from 1981 via Transit Toronto, and have done the same below:

View attachment 490516

So the fare should have risen to $2.10 per ride, but has instead risen to $3.30 literally more than 50% above inflation.

Yea but also the network has grown alot since then... its not just down to inflation but cost of increased services. It's not necessarily a linear growth

 

[nfitz]

Sure........but from my post on the previous page:

I'd still prefer higher fares, more in line with the mid-2010s, and no service cuts.

There was a deliberate move on the part of the city in around 2010 or so, to raise fares, to allow for the increase in services ... 30-minute minimums, 10-minute network, reduced loading standard etc. I'd prefer that approach to the recent change.

 

[DSCToronto]

FFS, what percent of the streetcar network has been closed the last decade?

I thought that the new way of laying streetcar track was designed to make it last longer. It may be different here as it is not on grade (mostly) but it was last done in 2007 so should really not need replacement now. Of course, it is possible that 'all' they are doing is the top layer plus waterproofing etc. I note we almost ended up with Sanscon again, just missed that bullet - though I have never heard of Duron!

 

[rbt]

I thought that the new way of laying streetcar track was designed to make it last longer.

It does, but when St. Clair was done that new treatment was only for the straight sections. Intersections, switches, and tight curves (I believe) were still being done the old way. This just seems to be the track within St. Clair West station, which is mostly curve and switch.

 

[drum118]

FFS, what percent of the streetcar network has been closed the last decade?

90%-100%

 

[nfitz]

So much for 512 streetcar service in the coming months and years. Looks like no streetcars east of St Clair West station for a few years.

https://ttc-cdn.azureedge.net/-/med...July-12/11_St_Clair_West_Loop_Replacement.pdf

https://ttc-cdn.azureedge.net/-/med...r_Off_Loading_Platform_Utility_Relocation.pdf

Neither of these are particularly large $ contracts.

The first talks about the use of replacement buses for about 10 weeks in October to December. The second (relating to streetcar platform at St. Clair station) says there'll be no impact to the streetcar loop or transit service. Is there another project for St. Clair that will interrupt service between St. Clair and St. Clair West? I thought the only thing on the books was that bridge replacement west St. Clair West - but I didn't think there was timing in place.

 

[Northern Light]

Neither of these are particularly large $ contracts.

The first talks about the use of replacement buses for about 10 weeks in October to December. The second (relating to streetcar platform at St. Clair station) says there'll be no impact to the streetcar loop or transit service. Is there another project for St. Clair that will interrupt service between St. Clair and St. Clair West? I thought the only thing on the books was that bridge replacement west St. Clair West - but I didn't think there was timing in place.

The second contract for utility relocation is in advance of platform reconstruction. So there will be a closure, but its in the subsequent contract.

The utilities being moved are actually suspended from the platform, so they need to be shifted out of the way to allow for demolition of same.

 

[nfitz]

The second contract for utility relocation is in advance of platform reconstruction. So there will be a closure, but its in the subsequent contract.

The utilities being moved are actually suspended from the platform, so they need to be shifted out of the way to allow for demolition of same.

Is still not clear to me why 512 streetcars will be suspended for years.

 

[Jonny5]

Yea but also the network has grown alot since then... its not just down to inflation but cost of increased services. It's not necessarily a linear growth

Especially the off-peak service too. I am barely old enough to recall the last years in the 1980's where Sunday shopping was still banned (which was ended by none other than Bob Rae's NDP government).
The idea that you would need service for most any route at less than a 20-30 minute frequency on a Sunday was unfathomable, if you even ran the route on Sundays at all as probably half the routes had zero service, and many routes that did would end their service around 6:00 p.m., because who would be out later than that on the Lord's Day? Only heathens!!!!

Even when I moved here permanently in 2005 I recall a vivid learning experience that even on weekdays many bus routes ended service a few hours before the subway shut down and you would be stranded at a station with no choice but to call a taxi... or walk.

The lower revenue off-peak service requires more subsidies, but it is what makes the network attractive and usable to occasional riders.

 

[Northern Light]

Especially the off-peak service too. I am barely old enough to recall the last years in the 1980's where Sunday shopping was still banned (which was ended by none other than Bob Rae's NDP government).
The idea that you would need service for most any route at less than a 20-30 minute frequency on a Sunday was unfathomable, if you even ran the route on Sundays at all--probably half the routes had zero service--and many routes that did would end their service around 6:00 p.m., because who would be out later than that on the Lord's Day? Only heathens!!!!

Even when I moved here permanently in 2005 I recall a vivid learning experience that even on weekdays many bus routes ended service a few hours before the subway shut down and you would be stranded at a station with no choice but to call a taxi... or walk.

The lower revenue off-peak service requires more subsidies, but it is what makes the network attractive and usable to occasional riders.

I'm just a few years older than you I imagine; I was in HS when Sunday shopping was legalized.

But I went downtown to go to movies on Sundays even before then, and to be clear, all cinemas were open, most restaurants were open, it was just non-entertainment businesses (book stores, grocery stores, clothing etc.) were closed.

Though Lichtmans { a bookstore chain) use to flout the law as I recall.

Sunday transit service was distinctly worse than Saturdays, but not as bad as you make it out to be by the late 80s.

Subway and streetcar services were generally under 10M waits and ran full span of service.

But routes definitely had less service on average, but my local bus was ever 12M from 11:30am-6:30pm; every 24M at other times, but service didn't stop til 10:30pm, and that was a mid-level route, not a major one.

 

[DSCToronto]

Though I cannot see Toronto being 'brave' enough to try this, CNN has an interesting piece on US Cities experimenting with free transit. https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/08/business/free-buses-us-public-transit/index.html

 

[Northern Light]

Though I cannot see Toronto being 'brave' enough to try this, CNN has an interesting piece on US Cities experimenting with free transit. https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/08/business/free-buses-us-public-transit/index.html

I don't think it would make sense in the Toronto context in the near-term.

I think first, if it were successful in encouraging additional uptake, its not just replacing the fare revenue its the cost, and ability of increasing service to meet a spike in demand.

Second, U.S. cities generally perceive transit as a welfare service, and I tend to think completely free fares could serve to reinforce that image.

I am for streamlined and lower fares; and there are savings from going full 'free' (fare gates are no longer needed, fare boxes, fare processing costs, transfers all become moot); and fare enforcement can become non-existent. But that would nowhere near offset the cost.