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TTC: Other Items (catch all)

These recent safety concerns got me thinking that maybe the TTC should de-wall the closed cross-passages at Queen’s Park and St. Patrick, and convert them into emergency use only - glass doors to mitigate security concerns (the reason they were closed off), and alarmed so that they are only used in an emergency (with CCTV).
 
These recent safety concerns got me thinking that maybe the TTC should de-wall the closed cross-passages at Queen’s Park and St. Patrick, and convert them into emergency use only - glass doors to mitigate security concerns (the reason they were closed off), and alarmed so that they are only used in an emergency (with CCTV).

I don't think that would add materially to real or perceived safety.

Besides, The one at St. Patrick for sure will be reopened in a few years for the TTC's second exit program and will have adequate traffic volume.

Queen's Park also needs a second exit, but I can't remember if the closed off bit is at the north or south end of the platform, which is relevant in the context of the second exit discussion as any new second exit is likely to be off the south end of said platform.
 
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Personally, I was thinking of a situation where an assailant is blocking the current exits on your platform, at least you’d be able to access the other side. Right now you’d have to run into the tunnel.
 
Personally, I was thinking of a situation where an assailant is blocking the current exits on your platform, at least you’d be able to access the other side. Right now you’d have to run into the tunnel.

Ironically that was why these were blocked off and Museum Station has the jail.

There were safety incidents in the 1970s I believe where people were held hostage by assailants in the cross passages. They were attacked and prevented from exiting by persons on either side of the passage. With only one way out, you can imagine what happened.
 
Ironically that was why these were blocked off and Museum Station has the jail.

There were safety incidents in the 1970s I believe where people were held hostage by assailants in the cross passages. They were attacked and prevented from exiting by persons on either side of the passage. With only one way out, you can imagine what happened.
I’m well aware of why they were closed. I just think with current technology, that risk can be well mitigated. I didn’t advocate for re-opening them, but rather converting them into blocked off but accessible emergency passages.
 
Ok, so we need just a bit of clarity, I think, on the origins of those sealed off passages; because I think the story is a bit murky to some.

Mariam Debra Peters, a 16-year old girl was murdered (stabbed 16x) at St. Patrick Station on Nov 7th, 1975, at some time close to 8pm.

Some important notes about this:

1) She was found on an escalator, not in one of the cross-passages w/no connection to the street level.

2) There were no cameras in stations back then, and no witnesses, its unknown where in the station she was attacked, presumably there was some forensic evidence, but so far as I can tell there
was no pool of blood or the like in the cross passages.

3) Traffic (passenger volume) was very, very sparse on the University Line back then. How sparse? The subway line initially shut each night at 9:45pm, and didn't operate on Sundays at all!

4) Service off-peak also operated with shorter trains (4 cars for newer rolling stock, 6 for the older red or G-Trains). So a train guard would not have seen the entire platform except in passing at speed.

5) Trains were less frequent.

6) There were no Designated waiting areas or alarms/intercoms on platforms.

The decision to close the cross-passages was in relation to this murder, but w/o proof of any relationship to same. It was done to 'appear' to do something. What people agitated for at the time was CCTV (early cameras), which the City turned down due to the exorbitant cost of 1.5M dollars. Plus, they didn't want to pay for staff to monitor them.

So instead, they sealed the crossways, and police were temporarily brought in to patrol stations until the public calmed down.

*******

Today would be different, because passenger volumes are much higher; because cameras exist throughout stations, because trains are full length and more frequent.

That said, as has been seen recently, the fact of likely being caught does not deter all attacks, including those in open, surveilled spaces.
 
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Yes, I propose that operators of buses (just like subways and streetcars) should not be involved in fare collection.

This not only removes a potential point of friction over whether one tapped or not, but whether one put the correct amount of money in the fare box, or has a valid transfer.

This change allows for all-door loading, eliminates transfers entirely both the type used on buses and in stations at considerable savings.

The object, as always is:

1) Make it as easy as possible to do the 'right thing'

2) Make every transaction and its obligation intuitive.

3) Make enforcement non-ambiguous (ie. age is irrelevant, we're not counting coins, there's no argument about valid transfers, etc etc.)

* I would also slash the max fine for non-payment to match the exact same fine we issue for a parking ticket so as to appeal to a general sense of fairness; and would universally move to provide each person, I written warning for a violation (for a lifetime) to again make sure that enforcement 'appears' fair, and penalties proportionate. This should allow for greater enforcement, reduced conflict and greater public sympathy with enforcement.

You have covered a whole waterfront of fare payment and structure issues, and I won't digress into which I like and which I would question. We could (and do) debate these regularly.

But to stay on the security theme - it seems to me there are two main things to chew over

1) Do we fundamentally want to exclude people who are unwilling or unable to pay a fare to enter the transit system

2) Do we fundamentally want security people to watch for, and intervene, people who "look like" trouble - or should the system aim simply to respond reactively

Re The first - while we could debate the fare structure details, the issue comes down to whether we want to address the homeless/ mental illness threat by simply not letting people wander into the system unless they can cough up some non-trivial amount of money. On the one hand, that impacts those who have least means and who are most in need of shelter. On the other hand, while it doesn't reduce or solve these problems, it probably will deter some from using the transit as a shelter (or doing so as often).... and it creates a reason for a challenge by someone (be it fare inspector or driver), which may in some small way create a behaving in a way that doesn't attract attention. Even the homeless and the less affluent fare evaders (and some of the mentally ill) do pay attention if they believe someone has the authority to kick them out, wasting the fare they have paid.

I do believe drivers should enforce fare payment, if only by refusing to move the vehicle until the non-payer gets off, perhaps with a call to the police or security to back that up. Transit people who work outside Toronto tell me that they do this regularly, and it usually gets compliance. Maybe in smaller towns that is still the norm.

Re the second - it comes down to how much trust we have in security and police to intervene in a way that is non-discriminatory and doesn't raise more concerns/issues than it solves. My personal belief is that both police and security culture is so bad and in need of change that I have no confidence any good is coming from having them around. Perhaps I should give some credit in that they will attempt to help people who approach them and ask for help - and when the matter becomes a 911 level incident we need them very badly and very quickly. But even there I see them as so bound by old culture and old arcane procedures that asking for help doesn't necessarily get much. ( I had an interesting experience one time in Times Square where I had to approach a NYPD police officer - and the response was so much better than what I see in Toronto - so don't write me off as anti-cop. I think our specific agencies are the problem, not the institution).

But on the other hand - if we increase the number of security people, but instruct them to not engage unless they have actually witnessed certain specific and more serious issues, we will have a huge number of bored and inert eyes and a really performance-deincentivised culture.

So in both cases, while one might accuse me of old school, I think that transit has to follow not lead whatever progress we make in sorting out the social issues and inequities in our society. I'm not condoning the bad practices I see today, but fundamentally I would retain a requirement to pay a fare, and I would structure security to have people who are most empowered to engage and keep people in check - even if that isn't a perfect system for justice or equality. The end justifies some means here. Transit needs to be a civil and restrained environment, not society at its most chaotic.

- Paul
 
Would there be data available on whether the perpetrators in these crimes had paid their fare? I don't suppose this is tracked, though I have a hard time believing that someone would pay a fare to commit an attack of some sort; I would be inclined to lean towards 'no'.
 
I do believe drivers should enforce fare payment, if only by refusing to move the vehicle until the non-payer gets off, perhaps with a call to the police or security to back that up. Transit people who work outside Toronto tell me that they do this regularly, and it usually gets compliance. Maybe in smaller towns that is still the norm.

My issue here is that I support all-door loading. The operator can't police tapping at the rear doors, so it makes no sense to have them police it at the front doors. (keeping in mind I'm proposing no transfers, no tickets, no cash, only Presto/Debit/Credit ie. Tap) .

If you oppose all-door loading, or wish to retain non-tap payment methods on buses, then I take your point. But I see this is as net cost savings, shorter trips times and reduced 'friction'. Its not merely a response to the latter.
 
Given the very low rate of safety incidents, I think it would be more informative and valuable if the TTC posted the incident count as well. The absolute count of incidents would probably be more informative given the very variable ridership throughout the pandemic.

I am not sure that evidence supports that increasing police presence will decrease opportunity for crime. Even if you accept that having a visible security presence will directly reduce criminal offenses (which I am not convinced of), there are two further issues:
An important question is how much security presence is appropriate. Currently, the desire is for more. Maybe security was too low. Can we successfully argue that it was too high or just right?

The planned additional increase in security officers will provide very low coverage compared to the TTC network as a whole. Given the random and unpredictable nature of the recent criminal actions, the additional spending and resourcing will have little effect effect.
It's a bit of alternate history, it's unlikely that an incident would happen in front of an officer and possibly then not happen at all. We can only count what has happened.

And, most importantly, police and security officers can cause safety and security issues. How will populations more vulnerable to arbitrary and unfair police enforcement, such as young Black men or homeless people feel about additional officers who will feel pressure to respond to perceived issues. I've seen TTC employees give a bit of grief a couple times to some Black teens who were just being young and horsing around a bit with each other--but not to white teens in similar situations. Having more uniformed officers will create an additional possibility of escalation.

I would be very surprised if physical interactions between police or security officers and the public are counted in the offenses against customers statistics.

I would argue that most importantly if we add more security, we make women, families and the elderly feel safer. If increasing transit usage is a goal, it needs to at least feel safe.

As a society, we shouldn't say that the homeless (as they would be unlikely to pay, more likely to loiter, etc) are a special group that can break TTC by-laws. That doesn't serve society at all.
 
Much of the discussion about problems on the TTC treat the entire system as homogeneous. From my very limited observations, that really isn't the case.

I see homeless individuals asleep on the university line subway cars and other riders co-existing without there being major issues.
On the other hand, almost every ride I have taken recently on the 510 and the 501 (close to the core) there have been quite intimidating outbursts of shouting and screaming, threatening pan handling and individuals who seem to be experiencing mental distress.

Putting TTC staff, special constables etc. on the 510 car, visibly in Spadina station and some other critical points in the system would make a big difference quickly.
 
it comes down to how much trust we have in security and police to intervene in a way that is non-discriminatory and doesn't raise more concerns/issues than it solves. My personal belief is that both police and security culture is so bad and in need of change that I have no confidence any good is coming from having them around.
You know, the TTC fundamentally exists as a transit system (the clue is in the name). If security and police discriminate between those who are using the TTC system as a transit system, and those who are behaving in a way that mean that others can't use it as a transit system, I don't think that I have a problem with that.

Individuals experiencing mental health crises, addiction issues etc. need help, but that help isn't going to come from a transit system.
When I am looking for public transit it isn't appropriate for me to wait at CaMH for a ride. Similarly the TTC isn't an appropriate space for those who require mental health and addiction services.
I don't disagree that we need more of everything when it comes to mental health and addiction services, affordable housing etc. However, these services never have been, nor ever will be, delivered at or by the TTC system.

And if most people feeling safer, or at least that someone else will intervene if there are issues, isn't a good outcome from having police and security around, I'm not sure what you are looking for...

AmJ
 
I do believe drivers should enforce fare payment, if only by refusing to move the vehicle until the non-payer gets off, perhaps with a call to the police or security to back that up. Transit people who work outside Toronto tell me that they do this regularly, and it usually gets compliance. Maybe in smaller towns that is still the norm.

That may work in small towns or Toronto 20 years ago, won't work today. Too many people are mentally ill or on powerful drugs. If someone doesn't pay a fare, the driver should let it go and drive on. I was stranded on a bus last year when a homeless person with mental illness refused to pay. The driver yelled at the person which caused the person to have a mental breakdown. This person was calm walking on and even during first few minutes during the conversation, but he became extremely agitated and acted aggressive, when the driver was yelling at him. We were delayed a good 15 minutes or more, until the driver gave up and drove off anyway. It's not worth holding a bus up and putting passengers safety at risk over few dollars bus fare.

Calling the police won't do a damn thing. It would take hours for the police to show up. They have more important things to do in the city, than attended a TTC fare dispute.
 
Calling the police won't do a damn thing. It would take hours for the police to show up. They have more important things to do in the city, than attended a TTC fare dispute.
Yes, there are more important things for the police to do but our police are none too good dealing with these either! Remember the screw-ups about the Bruce McArthur murders, or the fact her mother found the body of Tess Richey after a "police search' or the fact that 'minor thefts' are not investigated or that our cops seem to have given up on speed enforcement.
 
Yes, there are more important things for the police to do but our police are none too good dealing with these either! Remember the screw-ups about the Bruce McArthur murders, or the fact her mother found the body of Tess Richey after a "police search' or the fact that 'minor thefts' are not investigated or that our cops seem to have given up on speed enforcement.

Exactly! Just let fare evasion go. In my experience, 99% of the people getting on the bus do pay their fare. The ones that don't, the driver should let them on anyway, it's just not worth the confrontation.
 

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