TTC: Other Items (catch all)

[Northern Light]

Those aren't taxes. Those are rates. Which of course are going to be much higher where property is cheap.

Sure; but that might be said of income taxes too, in as much as the rate is the same for all Ontarians, but those in the GTA earn more money and therefore pay more...

In terms of tax fairness, if a tax is charged as rate, based on income or assets; the rate itself is the fair basis of comparison.

These really have little meaning, as what municipalities do, is every year, they take the budget, and divide by the tax base, to get the annual rate - which tends to get lower and lower every year (at least before MPAC suspended updated evaluations)

Agreed.

Look at the total property tax paid. Better yet, remove the provincial (education tax) portion.

In absolute dollars, Torontonians pay less per household.

But they tend to pay more per ft2.

There isn't really a neat way to parse that. Someone in Oshawa with a 1.5M home, likely has more house and more yard; but they also pay 50-100% more in property tax, as measured by absolute dollars.

That the province collects more from Toronto residents than almost anywhere else isn't relevant to what municipalities receive.

Sure, but doesn't take away that Toronto's property tax rate per assessed dollar of value is notably lower than peer-municipalities.

That being said, of course Toronto taxes should be lower. Taxes are based on the cost of providing service. With less road miles, watermains, sewers, etc. per capita for Toronto than more suburban municipalities, the cost of providing services will be lower. It's simply more structurally efficient.

Also true; but overlooks that Toronto's infrastructure is older; and is under-sized for the extent of development growth. It also misses out on much higher social service costs.

 

[toaster29]

Ontario spends less per capital on hospitals than almost any other province, it also spends less on Universities......

Why is this a point to be made? Yes, the most populated province, with areas of such high density is exactly where I would expect less would need to be spent per capita? Why is this a surprise to you? Economies of density - look it up, cost savings flow in areas of high population densities. What do you expect? Rural and remote Nunavut would be spending less per capita on their health care? Come on.

 

[crs1026]

Why is this a point to be made? Yes, the most populated province, with areas of such high density is exactly where I would expect less would need to be spent per capita? Why is this a surprise to you? Economies of density - look it up, cost savings flow in areas of high population densities. What do you expect? Rural and remote Nunavut would be spending less per capita on their health care? Come on.

One can debate the fine points of all those numbers, but that's getting a bit lost in the trees. (I do believe those numbers demonstrate what @Northern Light is saying is true).

An administration that eliminates charges for license plate renewal (which is a standard and accepted form of revenue raising in just about every North American jurisdiction) simply to generate a feel-good response from the electorate (while ignoring all the threadbare things in our community that need funding) is simply - out to lunch. Similarly, an administration that shies away from other forms of revenue collection that are similarly common and widely viewed as just and fair (here are two letters - T - - L..... fill in the missing middle two letters for yourself) and then cries poor and demands a summit from Ottawa so that they can demand that Ottawa pay up - is utterly naive.

No one should expect Canada or Toronto to be a "low tax" environment . Canadians demand a social structure that includes excellent health care, education, wealth redistribution, and infrastructure. Those things cost money. In our social vision the country I would most compare us to (with considerable affection and respect) is Norway. Have you ever been to Norway and checked out the taxes? Canada is similarly inclined, we just whine more and try to have it both ways.

I'm pretty fiscally conservative but I believe that there is no free lunch and you only get what you pay for. Canadians and Torontonians in particular are demanding more. There is no endless pot of money hidden under the disused swimming pool at 24 Sussex.

Politicians like Tory and Ford who try to run things on a shoestring and who pretend that represents good responsible government are a curse.

- Paul

 

[allengeorge]

I’ll also add that increasing density does not make per-capita costs drop to zero. I suspect there’s a curve, since at some point increasing density requires more infrastructure in a concentrated space, which makes servicing and replacing that infrastructure more expensive, and heavy use makes ongoing upkeep more expensive as well.

Even if we ignore infrastructure, many of the social services we demand are very labour-intensive, and unless we change delivery modes or technologies there are no magic economies of scale on that front (as Ontario is realizing with healthcare).

 

[Jonny5]

I’ll also add that increasing density does not make per-capita costs drop to zero. I suspect there’s a curve, since at some point increasing density requires more infrastructure in a concentrated space, which makes servicing and replacing that infrastructure more expensive, and heavy use makes ongoing upkeep more expensive as well.

Even if we ignore infrastructure, many of the social services we demand are very labour-intensive, and unless we change delivery modes or technologies there are no magic economies of scale on that front (as Ontario is realizing with healthcare).

The infrastructure bit is a part of the problem, but in an odd and specific way.

The McGuinty-Wynne Liberals went on a remarkable though necessary spend spree when in office on literally everything physical. Capital investment was all that mattered, but it did produce some incredible results. You can see this when you cross the border into Michigan, New York, Massachusetts, or even Quebec. If you want the worst case, go over to Manitoba. Our highways, bridges, rail lines, public buildings; everything here is palatial compared to the vast amount of literal "crumbling infrastructure" they can't/won't fix over there. We completely demolished old hospitals and replaced them from scratch with significantly upgraded and expanded ones. I look around Toronto and see the new Bridgepoint Health, Michael Garron, Cortelluci, Weston; plus the huge expansions of Sick Kids, and St. Mike's and I see a province that paid attention and spent on needed upgrades, but only to infrastructure. They ignored for way too long that when you upgrade and expand and double the physical size of buildings, you simply must have more worker bees in them. You can't add 500 beds to a hospital and hire zero new workers, but that's what happened.

What made it worse was the arrival of the Ford government not only continuing the policy, but doubling down on it by cancelling capital investments in medical training institutions at all levels from nurses to doctors.

 

[crs1026]

What made it worse was the arrival of the Ford government not only continuing the policy, but doubling down on it by cancelling capital investments in medical training institutions at all levels from nurses to doctors.

This is the heart of the problem. While I support recruiting foreign trained medical professionals, this is actually a superficial political crutch rather than a solution. In absolute numbers, it will only provide a certain % of the number we need. The remainder have to be trained in province.... and our educational institutions are not sized to deliver enough to make up the difference.

- Paul

 

[Jonny5]

This is the heart of the problem. While I support recruiting foreign trained medical professionals, this is actually a superficial political crutch rather than a solution. In absolute numbers, it will only provide a certain % of the number we need. The remainder have to be trained in province.... and our educational institutions are not sized to deliver enough to make up the difference.

- Paul

Yes, and I've read there is searing resentment in some of the places where we have poached talent from what are at best described as developing countries. I recall South Africa publicly rebuked Canada, and Ontario specifically, for recruiting dozens of their top nurses by almost literally bribing them with cash bonuses to move to Toronto. It's ethically dubious we have decided to rely on taking from developing or third-world countries to fill out our staff.

 

[mildlyamusingusername]

Hard to buy votes with OpEx, always looks better when you’re buying shiny new things with CapEx. I’d say John Tory has been more egregious on the front of funding operations, and we can see the effect of that every day on the TTC, in our parks, on our streets, etc. The issue is now is the exact worst time to raise taxes, when the economy is in/entering a recession. If we wanted higher municipal revenue, the time was when the economy was growing, now it’s both politically and economically a difficult choice to make. We could be worse off though, considering that we already have a federal government that is loath to invest in/create their own infrastructure projects, having a provincial government that also avoided CapEx would certainly set our infrastructure back decades,

 

[allengeorge]

And, bringing this back to Toronto and the TTC, it’s clear that Toronto’s tax take is insufficient to manage the city and the services it wants to provide and its citizens demand.

To give a few examples:

• Toronto’s ability to keep parks and street trees in good condition (trees, washroom facilities, etc) has plummeted.
• Its ability to fix potholes and do street cleaning has also suffered greatly, with many street drains completely backed up.
• Toronto’s SOGR backlog in every single department has increased. Every department!
• Toronto’s community facilities are increasingly oversubscribed and parents have a hard time getting access. Not to mention that some facilities have had such poor maintenance that they have to be closed at the last minute (I recall two cases in the last 6 months)
• And let’s not even get into TCHC…

Regardless of what you think of it’s tax rates, at the very minimum if your ability to maintain infrastructure is falling behind year after year you should consider whether you have too much infrastructure or a revenue problem.

 

[turbanplanner]

Property taxes are lower in the City of Toronto than surrounding municipalities, and indeed any other major city in Ontario https://www.zoocasa.com/blog/ontario-property-tax-rates-2022/

If you include the average garbage fee it’s in line with other cities as seen in the diagram

 

[gabe]

It’s like living in the movie “Ground Hog Day”. Nothing changes

Man sought after allegedly assaulting TTC riders on downtown streetcar

Man allegedly assaults TTC streetcar riders in downtown Toronto

A man allegedly assaulted riders on a TTC streetcar in downtown Toronto on Saturday, according to Toronto police.

toronto.ctvnews.ca

https://twitter.com/x/status/1619500912526884865

 

[turbanplanner]

M

Others have taken you to task, and rightly so, for bad comparisons.

I won't repeat their arguments, but I'll add.

Ontario spends less per capital on hospitals than almost any other province, it also spends less on Universities......

Ontario's sales tax is 2 points lower than Quebec, Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, PEI, and NB.

Ontario's entry-level income tax is lower than anyone else's including Alberta.

So yes, Toronto has to make up for under-spending by its senior partner in government, as do most GTA municipalities

In addition, choices by said municipalities exacerbate Toronto's problems.

York Region not only offers relatively few shelters per capita for the homeless, it also offers anemic transit that doesn't run 24/7.

Guess where the ultra-poor from York Region end up, and who has to pay the bill?
.


Washington D.C, Baltimore Maryland, Kingston, ON, and many, many more have cut their mounted units. They're comparatively rare utility, largely limited to public order (riots) which can be alternatively addressed, at lower risk to officers and animals suggests that retaining this rarely used function is questionable at best.



Basic Social Assistance rates in Ontario (OW) are at $733 per month for a single person.

Do explain to me how one can achieve being housed, fed, and have a phone, never mind buy a pair of socks on said budget.

ODSP is at least ~$1250, but that's still brutal.

BC and Quebec both provide over 1k to those on basic assistance.

Ontario is being miserly by any standard.

It should be said, most people on a subsistence income such as OW or ODSP for any length of time tend to require public housing.

Said housing, being rent geared-to-income automatically reclaims 30c on the dollar from said recipients.

So if you raise the amount, you're really eating only 2/3 of the gross amount as the rest will be recovered in increased rent.

The notion that you are so callous about people starving and homeless is really rather disturbing.

Most people can after an additional $200 a month expense before the pandemic and inflation, we can’t afford to take more money from the working and give it to those who don’t

 

[allengeorge]

Most people can after an additional $200 a month expense before the pandemic and inflation, we can’t afford to take more money from the working and give it to those who don’t

In that case, get prepared for more assaults, more thefts and an increase in the unhoused living in encampments and subway stations.

What exactly is your proposed solution? You don’t want any more taxes, you don’t want to increase services, but you want the problems to go away. How?

 

[Northern Light]

M

Most people can after an additional $200 a month expense before the pandemic and inflation, we can’t afford to take more money from the working and give it to those who don’t

This statement as worded makes no sense.

Which makes it equatable to most of what you post.

****

I won't waste time in endless flaming. You are proudly selfish, it is what it is.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

And, bringing this back to Toronto and the TTC, it’s clear that Toronto’s tax take is insufficient to manage the city and the services it wants to provide and its citizens demand.

To give a few examples:

• Toronto’s ability to keep parks and street trees in good condition (trees, washroom facilities, etc) has plummeted.
• Its ability to fix potholes and do street cleaning has also suffered greatly, with many street drains completely backed up.
• Toronto’s SOGR backlog in every single department has increased. Every department!
• Toronto’s community facilities are increasingly oversubscribed and parents have a hard time getting access. Not to mention that some facilities have had such poor maintenance that they have to be closed at the last minute (I recall two cases in the last 6 months)
• And let’s not even get into TCHC…

Regardless of what you think of it’s tax rates, at the very minimum if your ability to maintain infrastructure is falling behind year after year you should consider whether you have too much infrastructure or a revenue problem.

New York City has a sales tax and income taxes and bridge tolls. Revenue tools Toronto does not have.