TTC: Other Items (catch all)

[lenaitch]

I don’t think it will fly to ask operators to escort people off vehicles. Look, I get it: it undermines our collective trust in society when people fare-jump or flagrantly violate rules, but I think many operators would not feel safe confronting or enforcing compliance. Who knows how the person will respond? Moreover, it’s really unclear that you will get support from management if things go south, not to mention that there is a noisy subsection of commentators who would be anti-enforcement, and who would try to drive debate/responses. It’s really a no-win.

I think the best operators could do is call transit control or the TPS and ask for someone to come. I can only imagine that from a logistics situation that’s complicated: do you run your route and TPS/Transit Constables try to intercept you along the way? Do you simply stop your vehicle and wait, thus inconveniencing hundreds of users?

I don’t have a solution. It really would be better if we avoided this situation in the first place.

I think you are being a bit overly generous. If an operator manhandled (personhandled?) a passenger today, I think it is very clear what the response from management, the media and the noisy voices who claim to speak for everyone, would be.

 

[APTA-2048]

I think you are being a bit overly generous. If an operator manhandled (personhandled?) a passenger today, I think it is very clear what the response from management, the media and the noisy voices who claim to speak for everyone, would be.

Just look at the latest CP24 article about the employee assault. The headline is the operator shoved one of the teens. Doesn’t matter to them that the teens were shoving and disturbing other passengers before this all started and the employee told them to stop. Doesn’t matter to them that the response to being shoved was way out of proportion.

 

[crs1026]

A transit driver friend tells me, “My job is to drive the vehicle. What goes on behind me is not my concern, and I don’t intend to look”.

That’s a change in attitude from past decades, when a driver was considered to have charge of their passengers and assume responsibility for safety and order on the bus. I can’t blame the attitude, since there are more risks and perils to a driver intervening, and potentially being accused of any number of social injustices - never mind being assaulted.

There needs to be a clear and understandable and enforceable code for both drivers and security personnel.. The TTC by-laws don’t do it for me. Nor do the “secret rules of engagement” that seem to govern how transit security and police deal (or not) with situations they encounter. It’s clear that they also look the other way on anything short of overt violence.

If someone having a mental crisis enters a transit vehicle cursing and screaming to no one in particular, is that a disturbance as defined in the by-laws? What purpose is served by anyone intervening? (Very unlikely that they will cease and desist on the basis of verbal warning, so eventually the only solution is ejection and/or arrest, which very likely leads to a scuffle… which is phone-video’d by bystanders and ends up blowing up on social media)….is that worth the paperwork and the constable’s time and labour cost?

If two high school students get into a confrontation on the way home from school, and thirty other kids gather to watch, is this a prohibited disturbance, and if so what intervention is workable/appropriate?

I don’t see the point of adding more security or police staff if the unwritten code says, don’t intervene unless you see an actual assault or weapon. If they don’t have a mandate to address lesser disturbances, for fear of being accused of prejudice or overreach, they will just stand around….. and the impression that creates (and the internal culture it breeds) will just make them look worse and leave riders even more dissatisfied.

My personal view is that in our society, transit space needs to be safe, civil, and subdued - to the point where it resembles the traditional public library. I don’t see that happening in today’s world where detaining or holding people to account for minor transgressions is seen as “unfair” and abuse of authority.

Having said that, I remember riding the 506 streetcar in the 80’s when I had just graduated and had my first “adult” job. The private high school students who crowded on suddenly seemed like kids…. first time in my life I felt “old”. They were every bit as rude and crude and ribald and cheeky as what I see on the Royal York bus today. Such is youth….. the kids are all right.

- Paul

 

[Steve X]

Just look at the latest CP24 article about the employee assault. The headline is the operator shoved one of the teens. Doesn’t matter to them that the teens were shoving and disturbing other passengers before this all started and the employee told them to stop. Doesn’t matter to them that the response to being shoved was way out of proportion.

We don't know who started it first but it's not likely an employee would randomly start a fight with a bunch of teens. Usually the camera doesn't start rolling till an incidence has already started to occur.

 

[nfitz]

I remember in 2018 when I visited Singapore. I took public transit everywhere, even late at night and thought to myself, look at this place. Not a beggar, no litter, no visible addicts, no encampments, and the subway was clean, modern and efficient. I don't know what their secret is, presumably being a wealthy city state with near-dictatorial powers helps ...

That's their secret.

I'm sure if we had a far-right single-party dictatorship, we too would have less visible poverty and the buses would run on time. But I don't think that's the solution.

The solution is not having 30-years of funding cuts to mental healthcare, reductions in financial support, etc. But this is what Ontario and Toronto electors have chosen. So be it.

 

[APTA-2048]

I don’t see the point of adding more security or police staff if the unwritten code says, don’t intervene unless you see an actual assault or weapon. If they don’t have a mandate to address lesser disturbances, for fear of being accused of prejudice or overreach, they will just stand around….. and the impression that creates (and the internal culture it breeds) will just make them look worse and leave riders even

From what I heard from friends who work at the TTC, this is apparently the case. Seems to have happened after that one video from a few years ago where the mayor and councillors also piled on to and the guys eventually got fired. TTC didn't like the bad PR, but I have to say the current situation is much worse PR wise.

 

[Richard White]

From what I heard from friends who work at the TTC, this is apparently the case. Seems to have happened after that one video from a few years ago where the mayor and councillors also piled on to and the guys eventually got fired. TTC didn't like the bad PR, but I have to say the current situation is much worse PR wise.

Look. If someone is acting up who gives a crap about them cameras. Knock them around with pride until they realize there are consequences for their actions.

 

[drum118]

I will say this, TTC is seeing what other systems have been seen for years with a few seeing some improvement with the rest remaining as is or has gotten worse.

The big different today for TTC is media exposures of the problems. You get the copycats trying to do or getting that 15 minutes of fame by being on the video or shooting them. Those videos should be ban ASP once uploaded.

A number of systems in NA and Europe have both undercover officers riding the system to seeing uniforms officers around stations to riding them in the areas that have a high rate of issues.

The one area I have seen over the years is the increase of young offenders problems since they only get a slap on the hand for doing wrong when it should be harder. The the lack of parenting as some don't know how to discipline or fear someone will come knocking on their door for discipling their child. A lot of youths think they are above the law and can do what they want and when to do it.

As to drugs, that is a world wide issue with no sight how to stop it. Those who want to do drugs should be place in a secure area away from the public to do their thing and not to cry over it as X lost their lives to it. You can offer help to get them off the drug to a point, but give up on those who do not want to.

Same for Alcohol.

As for Homeless, there are people who prefer this lifestyle and there is nothing you can do about it. Some of the shelters are not great places to crash for the night at and very costly to do so in the first place. Cost of living and lack of family support play apart as well

Mentally health is a major issue and we don't have the space or staff to deal all those people that need help. Again, you will have ppl who refuse help or family members refusing to accept the fact that x member has a problem.

I have been assaulted and harassed a number of times over my lifetime regardless how much I check my surroundings during my travels, but it doesn't stop me from what I am doing or how I travel. I keep saying I seen everything that can be seen riding TTC only to run into something new these days. Seen a lot of homeless sleeping on subway train taking up more than one seat to the point do you notify someone that will stop service until someone arrives to remove them to the point you let it go so not to waste ppl time. It also applies to buses and streetcars as well. It was only a few years ago that I was last harassed that it took 30 minutes for an officers to show up at MEC on King St. The person went to jail to sleep it off.

 

[T3G]

Look. If someone is acting up who gives a crap about them cameras. Knock them around with pride until they realize there are consequences for their actions.

Easy to say that when it's not your livelihood on the line.

 

[Northern Light]

Easy to say that when it's not your livelihood on the line.

Or your freedom 'assaulting' someone, not in self-defense or that of another is a criminal act that could not only cost you your job, but see you incarcerated.

 

[Richard White]

Or your freedom 'assaulting' someone, not in self-defense or that of another is a criminal act that could not only cost you your job, but see you incarcerated.

I did mean in Self- Defense.

I was saying there are far too many people out there who are worried about what will happen if someone records them defending themselves to actually do something. If people did not care about cameras or being recorded rest assured there would be far more people defending themselves.

 

[T3G]

Did it ever occur to you that just because your old man was a hardened man of the streets, not everyone is? There are lots of people who do not have the physique, mental fortitude, or training for self defence. Nor, frankly, should there be. While I am of course not against self defence, having the whole city's population brawling each other would surely spark more side conflicts and would end up creating a much more violent city than there already is, especially if everyone views themselves as the undefeatable main character of their story.

And you failed to address the question of what happens when someone loses their job because of this vigilante justice you've proposed? It's easy to tough type words behind a keyboard. When you have to keep a roof over your head and food in your mouth, more rational decision making prevails.

 

[Richard White]

Did it ever occur to you that just because your old man was a hardened man of the streets, not everyone is? There are lots of people who do not have the physique, mental fortitude, or training for self defence. Nor, frankly, should there be. While I am of course not against self defence, having the whole city's population brawling each other would surely spark more side conflicts and would end up creating a much more violent city than there already is, especially if everyone views themselves as the undefeatable main character of their story.

And you failed to address the question of what happens when someone loses their job because of this vigilante justice you've proposed? It's easy to tough type words behind a keyboard. When you have to keep a roof over your head and food in your mouth, more rational decision making prevails.

If a person were fired for self-defense after being assaulted they would likely have the pants sued off them (and lose).

Besides, who in their right mind would recommend letting themselves be beaten to avoid being fired.

 

[T3G]

Besides, who in their right mind would recommend letting themselves be beaten to avoid being fired.

Well, I mean, in the premise of your own argument, people are apparently actively letting themselves be beaten to avoid being tarred and feathered by the terminally online, so...

 

[gabe]

Decided to skip the TTC hell scape today and took an Uber to/from home to harbour front. Cost $27.50 total, which my employer pays. Next week I have a meeting at Bloor and Isington - subway is right there, but I’m thinking to drive my own car. I think I’m developing a phobia of the insane.

I took the GO bus to Brampton today, it was like stepping into paradise. No crazies, no loud cell phone talkers, everyone spoke into their phone with library voices, no Blu-tooth speakers, everyone was wearing clean clothes, the bus didn't stink of weed, B.O. or feces. It was wonderful ride.

My point is that assaults and addictions on the TTC are nothing new. They are just more prevalent now because of the fact everyone has a camera in their pocket.

True but back then we didn't have these new ultra powerful synthetic strains of fentanyl and meth on the streets. From what I've heard and read, one dose of this new meth will make even the most sane person go completely psychotic.

‘I Don’t Know That I Would Even Call It Meth Anymore’

Different chemically than it was a decade ago, the drug is creating a wave of severe mental illness and worsening America’s homelessness problem.

www.theatlantic.com