TTC: Other Items (catch all)

[Steve X]

The TTC is getting billions of the budget in operating and capital works budgets. We've been putting off gardiner repairs for decades so it makes sense I'd be expensive this year.

TTC doesn't get billions in operating budgets, it's only a few hundred million. Most of it is funded through fares, not subsidized through taxation. It just formally appears as spending on the budget.

The gardiner gets a much higher share as it does bring in financial benefits that repairing sidewalks or building bike lanes don't. Goods are carried into the city on the highway, not on bikes or foot. Tourism and luxury dining/entertainment comes in from the 905 area and beyond through the highway. They aren't locals cycling to the high end restaurants or watching the Leafs. Unless transportation infrastructure significantly improves, no one would consider that option. Especially when outsiders hear about all the assaults on the subway, good luck getting them to ride the TTC.

Maintaining the gardiner does help the city economically. At least people know the highway is there to link outsiders to the city even if they don't use it. The city however shouldn't neglect other transportation infrastructure as driving is not a sustainable mode of transportation in a densely growing city.

 

[picard102]

Ya, we've chosen to drive downtown now for the most part rather than take the subway. I can see Wilson station from my front yard, but it's just not worth it.

 

[turbanplanner]

TTC doesn't get billions in operating budgets, it's only a few hundred million. Most of it is funded through fares, not subsidized through taxation. It just formally appears as spending on the budget.

The gardiner gets a much higher share as it does bring in financial benefits that repairing sidewalks or building bike lanes don't. Goods are carried into the city on the highway, not on bikes or foot. Tourism and luxury dining/entertainment comes in from the 905 area and beyond through the highway. They aren't locals cycling to the high end restaurants or watching the Leafs. Unless transportation infrastructure significantly improves, no one would consider that option. Especially when outsiders hear about all the assaults on the subway, good luck getting them to ride the TTC.

Maintaining the gardiner does help the city economically. At least people know the highway is there to link outsiders to the city even if they don't use it. The city however shouldn't neglect other transportation infrastructure as driving is not a sustainable mode of transportation in a densely growing city.

Unless I'm misunderstanding something fares only pay about 1/4 to 1/3rd of the budget.

 

[Northern Light]

Unless I'm misunderstanding something fares only pay about 1/4 to 1/3rd of the budget.


View attachment 447797

2020-2022 will read as historical anomalies, one assumes, due to Covid causing a sharp decline in ridership.

A fair comparison would be the last 'normal' year, which is 2019:

In that year, fares and other revenues (ads/leasing) represented 63% of operating expenditures.

Of course, it should be noted, the City's revenue recovery from drivers was 0%.

 

[turbanplanner]

2020-2022 will read as historical anomalies, one assumes, due to Covid causing a sharp decline in ridership.

A fair comparison would be the last 'normal' year, which is 2019:

View attachment 447799

In that year, fares and other revenues (ads/leasing) represented 63% of operating expenditures.

Of course, it should be noted, the City's revenue recovery from drivers was 0%.

Drivers that year paid a fee for provincial roads, property tax pays for local roads which we'd need anyways so it's a moot point imo.

I think with WFH the city is going to keep funding a billion a year for the next several years of subsidy to keep the system running.

 

[Northern Light]

Drivers that year paid a fee for provincial roads, property tax pays for local roads which we'd need anyways so it's a moot point imo.

This statement does not make sense to me.

The comparison being made is that property tax is used to fund a portion of transit cost, with the balance being user-pay.

Whereas property tax funds the entirety of road costs with no user pay.

****

There are two ways to look at this, one is that both modes should be treated the same as a matter of principle, which I think a case can be made for........

In which case, both should have the same balance of user-pay vs property tax.

In which case, either tolls should represent 63% of the cost of roads; or transit should be free; or you meet in the middle somewhere.

The other case to be made is that given the concerns over climate change, and the cost of housing, and thus it being an imperative to have more people choose to take public transit, that if any mode were to be subsidized in higher proportion it would be transit, not roads.

Either way, the objective is to compare these things on a level paying field, which you are not.

 

[nfitz]

Drivers that year paid a fee for provincial roads, property tax pays for local roads which we'd need anyways so it's a moot point imo.

Property tax pays almost all of road operations &maintenance, and normally 1/4 to 1/3 of TTC operations. That the province collects a fee from car owners that doesn't even cover the extra policing and snow plowing necessary on provincial highways - let alone maintenance has no relevance.

 

[DSC]

CP 24:

 

[Amare]

First and foremost i'm glad everyone is ok after this incident.

But as an aside, who's ready for the next idiotic "safety" procedure the TTC will look at exploring to institute after this to further cripple streetcar operations?

 

[Richard White]

First and foremost i'm glad everyone is ok after this incident.

Who's ready for the next idiotic "safety" procedure the TTC will institute after this to further cripple streetcar operations?

Fire suppression systems on all cars?

 

[KevinT]

Why? Can grids handle an influx of EVs? Plus many grids aren't clean enough to justify charging EVs. And don't forget the highly polluting mining required for the batteries' lithium. I'm with Toyota's CEO when he says EVs are overhyped.

Wow, the fossil industry propagandists have got you hook, line, and sinker.

Go to https://live.gridwatch.ca/home-page.html to see Ontario's power mix in real time, then tell me how dirty it is. Also, even burning oil to generate electricity and then incurring the transmission, transformation, battery charging, discharging, inverter, and motor losses in an e-bus still uses less oil than refining oil into diesel which is then transported, pumped, and burned in a traditional bus.

Polluting mining? Right, because oil extraction, refining, and transportation is totally clean. A lot of oil is burned just to make a gallon of diesel that goes bang in a cylinder once then is gone forever. The lithium, nickel, cobalt, and copper in an EV are mined once, refined, used for a decade or more, and then recycled and used yet again.

Might the grid require some updating? Sure, but much of it is replaced on a 30ish year cycle anyway, and please tell me where all the refineries, pipelines, and gas stations were when the Model T came out? Nowhere. We adapt. We built it because change happens, oo.

 

[W. K. Lis]

CP 24:

View attachment 447911

I remember the same happening when I was working around Bay & King back in the 1970's. The trolley wire broke and fell on top of a PCC streetcar on King Street. Sparks flying around. They cleaned up and reconnected within an hour or two.

 

[yrt+viva=1system]

CP 24:

View attachment 447911

I can almost bet that the TTC is going to bring the speed restriction from 10km/h down to 5km/h for special trackwork now. Self-sabotage at it's finest what the TTC is professional at. Since when they became so gun-shy I have no idea but it's getting ridiculous considering that they run the largest legacy streetcar operations in North America.

At the same time I can't help but think this is also part of the TTC's own doing of haphazardly upgrading the whole system to catenary overhead. Doing bits here and there and completely forgetting what has been done and what hasn't. If I'm correct, the current overhead system is not100% catenary but a hybrid system that allows for trolley shoes to co-operate. They might as well just go for the 100% catenary-only system now that we seldom use trolley poles for day to day operations.

 

[DSC]

I can almost bet that the TTC is going to bring the speed restriction from 10km/h down to 5km/h for special trackwork now. Self-sabotage at it's finest what the TTC is professional at. Since when they became so gun-shy I have no idea but it's getting ridiculous considering that they run the largest legacy streetcar operations in North America.

At the same time I can't help but think this is also part of the TTC's own doing of haphazardly upgrading the whole system to catenary overhead. Doing bits here and there and completely forgetting what has been done and what hasn't. If I'm correct, the current overhead system is not100% catenary but a hybrid system that allows for trolley shoes to co-operate. They might as well just go for the 100% catenary-only system now that we seldom use trolley poles for day to day operations.

I agree with you that it has taken the TTC FAR too long to convert the overhead and I think part of the problem was/is that this was a MUCH larger project than they admitted to when they ordered the new streetcars so it was not properly funded. There are some routes that are already 100% pantograph while others (like 504) remain all poles as there are a few isolated sections to be converted or, like the 503, the longer Kingston Road section. They are currently working on Kingston Road and on the remaining short sections of the Church/Richmond/Victoria/Adelaide 'loop' used quite often by King cars. I assume none of the new order of cars will have poles?

 

[Undead]

Wow, the fossil industry propagandists have got you hook, line, and sinker.

Oooo, got me. Are you mad someone's challenging the green dogma?

Ontario's got a clean grid, by global standards, I'm aware of that. Not the case for most other grids. Drum referred to transit systems writ large converting to ebuses; meaning most of these conversions would be drawing power from less than clean grids.

The same concerns exist for battery disposal as do for solar panels and wind mills i.e. dumped in a field in Africa somewhere. Edit: Not responding to any more silly green takes.