TTC: Other Items (catch all)

[jje1000]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1111271691001520128

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1111271691001520128

Of course the city will be "on the hook" for the costs. Ain't a surprise

 

[Richard White]

Of course the city will be "on the hook" for the costs. Ain't a surprise

Realistically Conservatives have never been one for building transit and if they do, they pawn the costs off on others. Take the Eglinton Subway Line for example. The NDP built it and Mike Harris had it filled in and nixed. Rob Ford wanted to build subways all across Toronto but asked for the private sector to pay for it.

Doug Ford will ruin this city by downloading the costs to the City of Toronto for projects it does not want in order to proclaim how he saved the taxpayers of the PROVINCE money. There are 6 million or so voters outside Toronto to worry about. If the province paid the full cost they would lose the next election, if Toronto pays a portion of it they will lose votes in Toronto but still have 6 million more elsewhere.

 

[Amare]

So let's get this straight, the province is planning on "spending" $25 billion on 4 projects? Even more shocking, the price tag would reach upwards of $30 billion in total? That's some of the most inefficient use of funds for transit that i've ever heard of in my life.

To put it in perspective, London UK built Crossrail for more than $26 billion which gave them 42km of tunnel. However, it is one of the most technologically complex projects to have ever been built in the world with immense challenges building under active heavy rail corridors, various complex subterranean conditions, various methods of construction, etc..

I'm embarrassed for this city and province.

 

[BurlOak]

Realistically Conservatives have never been one for building transit and if they do, they pawn the costs off on others. Take the Eglinton Subway Line for example. The NDP built it and Mike Harris had it filled in and nixed. Rob Ford wanted to build subways all across Toronto but asked for the private sector to pay for it.

I believe that the TBM launch shaft was started, and the sunk cost was ~$30M (back in the day when the Sheppard Subway cost $1B).
Also, the Eglinton subway was a bit of a fiasco. It was planned in the 80's as BRT. Then the NDP turned it into a subway - but for the portion from 427 to Eglinton West. Half of this portion was planned as on-street up until a week ago.
So the question really was - in 1990, was THAT Eglinton subway the top priority. Mike Harris asked that question of the City and the response was that Sheppard was a higher priority. Basically, in 10 years, the PC's built Sheppard subway. In 15 years, the Liberal built the extension to York U and Vaughan, and Eglinton LRT, half built. I would give the Liberals an edge on transit, but not by huge amounts. And remember that Harris was around when subway ridership was shrinking (due to extremely low gas prices).

 

[robmausser]

I believe that the TBM launch shaft was started, and the sunk cost was ~$30M (back in the day when the Sheppard Subway cost $1B).
Also, the Eglinton subway was a bit of a fiasco. It was planned in the 80's as BRT. Then the NDP turned it into a subway - but for the portion from 427 to Eglinton West. Half of this portion was planned as on-street up until a week ago.
So the question really was - in 1990, was THAT Eglinton subway the top priority. Mike Harris asked that question of the City and the response was that Sheppard was a higher priority. Basically, in 10 years, the PC's built Sheppard subway. In 15 years, the Liberal built the extension to York U and Vaughan, and Eglinton LRT, half built. I would give the Liberals an edge on transit, but not by huge amounts. And remember that Harris was around when subway ridership was shrinking (due to extremely low gas prices).

I think the UPX should count too. It is mostly in Toronto

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I think the UPX should count too. It is mostly in Toronto

Don't forget GO and the amount of infrastructural upgrades associated with it. It isn't Toronto - but a good chunk of it is enabling stuff. GO ridership went up from 40M to what, 70M or so during the Liberal years.

AoD

 

[Islington Express Bus]

The Liberals deserve massive credit for improving GO. They were pretty good for transit in general. I say this as an NDP voter.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The problem is that the money the liberals sunk into GO was a lot of "no results" cash - money needed to eventually see results but alone did not create those.

Things like buying all the corridors cost probably over a billion dollars but results in no actual service improvements immediately - but is needed long term to enable future works to improve service.

Only now is GO really able to make those investments and see those returns. Lakeshore 15 minute service, all day on other lines, etc.

Liberals also set up funding for The Finch LRT, Scarborough Subway, Hamilton LRT, Ottawa LRT, Waterloo LRT, and Hurontario LRT. Much more than Harris did.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The problem is that the money the liberals sunk into GO was a lot of "no results" cash - money needed to eventually see results but alone did not create those.

Things like buying all the corridors cost probably over a billion dollars but results in no actual service improvements immediately - but is needed long term to enable future works to improve service.

Only now is GO really able to make those investments and see those returns. Lakeshore 15 minute service, all day on other lines, etc.

Totally right - and it is pretty damning that essential, expensive but unsexy improvements that doesn't provide immediate gains promptly got forgotten even by this crowd (nevermind the general public). This is part of the reason why we are where we are.

Liberals also set up funding for The Finch LRT, Scarborough Subway, Hamilton LRT, Ottawa LRT, Waterloo LRT, and Hurontario LRT. Much more than Harris did.

Harris? He did provide some capital funding (some SOGR and obviously Sheppard) - but don't forget he also downloaded local transit completely - and at one point, even the GO to the short-lived GTSB.

AoD

 

[nfitz]

He did provide some capital funding (some SOGR and obviously Sheppard)

Sheppard? Inititally Harris cancelled all the funding for both Sheppard and Eglinton West - resulting in the TTC cancelling the Eglinton tunnelling contract and filling in the hole at Eglinton West station where they were going to launch the TBM from. Metro and TTC then proceeded with the Sheppard tunnelling, but without full funding to complete the track and electrical.

I believe there was some government funding a few years later to complete it ... but I'm having a hard time quantifying it. I'm not sure it was that large an amount - or even that obvious! But I can't find the number.

 

[Streety McCarface]

I and a bunch of people I have talked to in the community are pretty certain it's either REM style technology (better than LRT would need to have decently long trains), or more radically trains going into a modified Relief Line Tunnel from GO Corridors.

GO Trains in tunnels (but not traditional bilevel ones), or something like REM.

Yurek confirmed thats not it. And it will be tunneled.

I just don't understand how this type of build can save significant amounts of money. It's basically the same thing as the subway, but with much longer platforms, and still wider tunnels (pantographs require more space). Surely standard gauge track can't save that much money to bring costs back down to around 7 billion dollars (if the cons are even telling us the truth). Unless this is mixed in with RER and proposed as a solution to the Union Station troubles.

The one thing I am worried about is integration, and whether it will be worth it for people to actually take the relief line if there is no fare integration or the transfer stations are poorly interlined.

 

[Tuscani01]

Basically, in 10 years, the PC's built Sheppard subway. In 15 years, the Liberal built the extension to York U and Vaughan, and Eglinton LRT, half built. I would give the Liberals an edge on transit, but not by huge amounts. And remember that Harris was around when subway ridership was shrinking (due to extremely low gas prices).

And the Ottawa LRT, Kitchener-Waterloo LRT, VIVA Rapidways, Mississauga Transitway - plus as mentioned, funding for all of the lines continuing construction under the Ford government.

 

[steveintoronto]

I just don't understand how this type of build can save significant amounts of money. It's basically the same thing as the subway, but with much longer platforms, and still wider tunnels (pantographs require more space).

Crossrail uses 6.2 metre tunnels vs the TTC plan to use 5.4 metres. That's a 15% increase in diameter for a massive increase in speed, load and ability to through-run onto extant Metrolinx owned track. Crossrail uses mainline trains, and the RL could too, including HFR as well as RER for a very slight increase in cost of build for the tunnels. Of course the stations would have to be longer. That happens when you seriously wish to move a lot of people. Is the Relief Line for the future or for playing toy trains with? Crossrail deep level stations are pre-built to extend the platforms for 12 car trains in future. Imagine that! Planning for the future.

The Class 345 is a Bombardier Aventra design electric multiple unit being manufactured for London's Crossrail. 70 nine-car trains are being manufactured at a cost of over £1 billion, with each train able to reach 140 km/h (90 mph) and carry 1,500 passengers.[6][3] The contract was awarded to Bombardier Transportation in February 2014 and the train entered service on 22 June 2017. Initial deliveries are of seven-car sets, which will be extended to nine car sets at a later date. [...]
In 2008, the British government's rolling stock plan stated a requirement for around 600 carriages for Crossrail, expected to be similar in design to the Thameslink rolling stock, to meet the design improvement requirements of the 2007 "Rail Technical Strategy" (RTS), including in-cab signalling/communication with satellite and ERTMS level 3 technologies, regenerative braking, low cost of operation and high reliability, with low weight and high acceleration.[7][8]

The publicly released specifications included a passenger capacity of 1,500, with 450 seated, in a fully air-conditioned train no longer than 205 m (673 ft) with a top speed of 145 km/h (90 mph), and an energy efficiency as good as 24 kW·h per train-kilometre. Integration with platform screen doors is also expected.[5][...]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_345

Meantime, if something a tad more pedantic is needed since Torontonians by and large can't think world class (as much as they claim to aspire to) there's the Thameslink example, with 6 metre tunnels: (An 11% increase in diameter from the TTC's proposed 5.4 metres for DRL)

• British Rail Class 700 - Thameslink rolling stock built of the Desiro City family, to broadly similar specifications to Crossrail rolling stock, but with a higher top speed.
• Siemens UK - The need for speed: Thameslink trains reach 100mph

• ...one of the key benefits that will be realised when the Thameslink project is completed will be the ability to run 24 trains per hour between Blackfriars to St Pancras Low Level which is known as the ‘core area’. This target will include 16 trains coming from the Midland main line route and eight trains from the East Coast main line, hence the need for the Canal Tunnels now to be fitted out and integrated into the operational railway.[...]

  https://www.railengineer.co.uk/2014/05/01/tunnels-exercising-foresight/

And then there's the Class 717 variant of the Class 700 dual voltage (third rail and retractable pantograph for 25kVAC) especially built for spending time in tunnels:

More images

British Rail Class 717
Description
The Class 717 is an electric multiple unit used by Govia Thameslink Railway, on its Great Northern routes. They are manufactured by German rolling stock manufacturer Siemens, mainly for services from Moorgate station, in London. A total of 25 six-car units are to be built.Wikipedia

Train length: 121,674 mm (399 ft 2 3⁄8 in)
In service: 21 January 2019
Fleet numbers: 717001–717025
Car length: 20.2 m (66 ft)
Line(s) served: Great Northern Route
Electric system(s): 25 kV 50 Hz AC Catenary; 750 V DC Third rail
Operator(s): Great Northern

British Rail Class 717 - Wikipedia

And they're now in operation, see here:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=class+717

 

[steveintoronto]

Crossrail uses 6.2 metre tunnels vs the TTC plan to use 5.4 metres. That's a 15% increase in diameter for a massive increase in speed, load and ability to through-run onto extant Metrolinx owned track. Crossrail uses mainline trains, and the RL could too, including HFR as well as RER for a very slight increase in cost of build for the tunnels. Of course the stations would have to be longer. That happens when you seriously wish to move a lot of people. Is the Relief Line for the future or for playing toy trains with? Crossrail deep level stations are pre-built to extend the platforms for 12 car trains in future. Imagine that! Planning for the future.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_345

Meantime, if something a tad more pedantic is needed since Torontonians by and large can't think world class (as much as they claim to aspire to) there's the Thameslink example, with 6 metre tunnels: (An 11% increase in diameter from the TTC's proposed 5.4 metres for DRL)

• https://www.railengineer.co.uk/2014/05/01/tunnels-exercising-foresight/

And then there's the Class 717 variant of the Class 700 dual voltage (third rail and retractable pantograph for 25kVAC) especially built for spending time in tunnels:

British Rail Class 717 - Wikipedia

And they're now in operation, see here:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=class+717

Further to above...the Great Northern Line tunnel bore diameter that the Class 717's operate in on third rail with the pantograph down is...wait for it..less than the size of tunnel that the TTC is planning for the DRL. (5.4 m )

Despite being built using similar methods to the tube network then under construction, the tunnels were built large enough to take a main-line train, with an internal diameter of 16 feet (4.9 m), compared with those of the Central London Railway with a diameter less than 12 feet (3.7 m).
Termini: Finsbury Park; London Moorgate

Electrification 25 kV 50 Hz AC OHLE (Drayton Park and north) 750 V DC third rail (Drayton Park and south)

Track gauge: 1,435 mm (4 ft 8 1⁄2 in) standard ...
Owner: Network Rail

Northern City Line - Wikipedia

Unfortunately, due to the third rail capabilities of the Class 717, and purposely limited current draw for the underground sections, max speed is limited to 85 mph in tunnel. I think that should do it...The tunnels are wider for the 90 and 100 mph max speeds of the Crossrail Class 345 in tunnel, and the Thameslink Class 700 in tunnel.