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TTC: Other Items (catch all)

Steve X said:
I really don't understand why are we even discussing the needs of a downtown garage in 2025. Unlike NYC or Montreal, the primary surface transit node are streetcars.

The 19 Bay itself operates with a maximum of 4 buses in the afternoon. Gone are the pre-pandemic days where a couple dozen buses flock the route.
The 65 Parliament operates with 6 buses max.
The 75 Sherbourne operates with 10 buses max.
The 94 Wellesley operates with 9 buses max.
The 97C Yonge branch operates with 3 buses.
The 114 Queens Quay East bus operates with 8 buses max.
The 121 Esplanade-River operates with 4 buses max.
Add the seasonal 202 Cherry Beach with 3 buses and throw in 20 buses for streetcar shuttles, it sums up to 67 buses. Add 20% spare ratio and it's up to 90 buses.

TTC wants to build a big garage with 250-300 buses. Building one downtown would mean 200+ buses are going to deadhead out of downtown traffic as they are not even needed there. That's a BS about of wasted resources to operate the garage on top an expensive BS proposal. Even if TTC builds a small garage, they still need to build another garage elsewhere. So this discussion is frankly quite naive and not well thought. TTC could use a new HQ more than a new downtown garage.
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I think you need to think more broadly, in geographic terms.

There is no operating garage in the entire old City of Toronto. Every last one was shuttered, Danforth, Eglinton (at Yonge), Lansdowne, and Parkdale.

The result is a massive deadhead time, not just for the core routes, but most services in the core east end, in Don Mills, and a many other places.

The absence of a garage closer to the core is part of the reason for anemically slow response times to subway shutdowns that require shuttles.

As noted in posts above, a new garage is not necessary, Danforth is available to reactivate, with or without heavy repair functions. There is also plenty of space at the former Eglinton Site (Yonge) though that will surely be developed, plans are on hold for now, and much of the former garage space is there, along with a vast empty lot.

Drum's suggestion about a better use for the Commissioner's site could also make sense.

****

As a separate, but related issue, the TTC's inefficient operation of buses creates an artificial suggestion of the need of more (rather than differently located) garage space.

The TTC should not ever need to operate more than 11 garages in the City. Queensway could be enlarged/replaced, but in general, the TTC wastes about 25% of the fleet through lousy operation/service planning and bad choices by Transportation services.

Add deadhead time to that for a bit extra.
 
Richard White said:
Thank you for highlighting the article!

She reached out to me earlier this week after seeing my reddit post. Oddly enough this is the second Toronto Star article I have been featured in, the first was about the RT.
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You spoke very well.

Your actions are the more important thing; you acquitted yourself very well and set an example others would do well to follow.

But you also managed to advocate for just that, I think, quite effectively.

On behalf of your fellow UT'ers, transit users and Torontonians, 'Job well done'!
 
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Northern Light said:
I think you need to think more broadly, in geographic terms.

There is no operating garage in the entire old City of Toronto. Every last one was shuttered, Danforth, Eglinton (at Yonge), Lansdowne, and Parkdale.
.
Click to expand...

There was also Davenport, small as it was, right behind Hillcrest, which closed in the early 1990s if I recall (my Dad briefly considered transferring there from Lansdowne). I highly doubt it could be reactivated unless it was extensively rebuilt commensurate with Hillcrest being modified to store 511/512 streetcars. Now that raises the question of whether Wychwood should have closed - I think it should have been kept - but that's moot now.
 
Northern Light said:
I think you need to think more broadly, in geographic terms.

There is no operating garage in the entire old City of Toronto. Every last one was shuttered, Danforth, Eglinton (at Yonge), Lansdowne, and Parkdale.

The result is a massive deadhead time, not just for the core routes, but most services in the core east end, in Don Mills, and a many other places.

The absence of a garage closer to the core is part of the reason for anemically slow response times to subway shutdowns that require shuttles.

As noted in posts above, a new garage is not necessary, Danforth is available to reactivate, with or without heavy repair functions. There is also plenty of space at the former Eglinton Site (Yonge) though that will surely be developed, plans are on hold for now, and much of the former garage space is there, along with a vast empty lot.

Drum's suggestion about a better use for the Commissioner's site could also make sense.
Click to expand...
One thing to consider though is that there are certain. fixed overhead costs regardless of the size of the facility.

When the TTC opened the Comstock Garage, they stated that those fixed overhead costs were a bit over $3mil / year - in 2001. Thus they cited an equivalent cost savings by using Comstock Garage to be able to close both old Eglinton and Danforth Garages, even though the actual system bus capacity didn't increase.

This is why they've been looking to build bigger facilities, and why every single one of them now (save for Queensway) is designed for handling about 275 buses. There simply aren't many plots of land that big in the old City of Toronto to build a new garage.

There had been an idea a while back to convert Lakeshore into a regular garage and then spread out the Wheel-Trans fleet around the City, but since they've moved to gasoline vehicles for Wheel-Trans (and the commensurate change of maintenance regimen and standards) they seem to have walked back from that. If course, the fact that the Lakeshore property is about half of the size of any of the modern garages (and only a bit bigger than Danforth) probably didn't hurt in making that decision.

Northern Light said:
As a separate, but related issue, the TTC's inefficient operation of buses creates an artificial suggestion of the need of more (rather than differently located) garage space.

The TTC should not ever need to operate more than 11 garages in the City. Queensway could be enlarged/replaced, but in general, the TTC wastes about 25% of the fleet through lousy operation/service planning and bad choices by Transportation services.

Add deadhead time to that for a bit extra.
Click to expand...
Care to elaborate?

Dan
 
smallspy said:
One thing to consider though is that there are certain. fixed overhead costs regardless of the size of the facility.

When the TTC opened the Comstock Garage, they stated that those fixed overhead costs were a bit over $3mil / year - in 2001. Thus they cited an equivalent cost savings by using Comstock Garage to be able to close both old Eglinton and Danforth Garages, even though the actual system bus capacity didn't increase.

This is why they've been looking to build bigger facilities, and why every single one of them now (save for Queensway) is designed for handling about 275 buses. There simply aren't many plots of land that big in the old City of Toronto to build a new garage.
Click to expand...

Agree w/everything here; strictly on operating costs, I'd need to see the numbers for longer deadheads. I don't have a number for that higher fixed cost but is a consideration.

Of course, rapid response to shutdowns is a less tangible benefit, but one that also is limited by how many spare board buses and operators are available on any given shift at any given facility.

smallspy said:
Care to elaborate?

Dan
Click to expand...

Sure.

I'm off today, so let me roll through some data and work out how to post it.
 
Google seems to think the TTC is currently free, perhaps someone made an error when adding the Dec 31 context? (No issue with GO.)
1766592342817.png
 
I don't see TTC fixing up older garages or making a downtown garage a priority.
But from a core operational need, it should be looked at. I get the lack of space downtown, but as mentioned , a multi level garage could potentially help with land use.

TTC also has situation where they lease too many officers spaces for staff and management positions, which should be a bigger priority. Unless TTC sees leasing office space a better use of money than actually owning the building. Many companies appear to be leasing than owning the building as well.

TTC has storage space on Unwin. I assume for streetcar material. And what's going on with the property by DVP and Lake Shore? I assume they sold it for future development. Or maybe they were always leasing that space ?

As for Eglinton, I had the opportunity to peak through. All the pits and space for hoist appear to still be there. And the service line is there as well. But as @Northern Light lights mentioned, all that will be redeveloped anyways. It's a shame that TTC couldn't get a new bus terminal at Eglinton station as part of the LRT project.

Danforth is being used for storage material as well. With the original storage building demolished. The main maintenance area and body shop is still intact. But messing is the fuel pumps. TTC still has to update Danforth for fire code compliance anyways, for both inactive facility as well. Which is a cost in itself.

But after 25 years, TTC had plenty of time do something with both properties. And address or give proposals for operating needs.
 
RapidTransit said:
I don't see TTC fixing up older garages or making a downtown garage a priority.
But from a core operational need, it should be looked at. I get the lack of space downtown, but as mentioned , a multi level garage could potentially help with land use.

TTC also has situation where they lease too many officers spaces for staff and management positions, which should be a bigger priority. Unless TTC sees leasing office space a better use of money than actually owning the building. Many companies appear to be leasing than owning the building as well.

TTC has storage space on Unwin. I assume for streetcar material. And what's going on with the property by DVP and Lake Shore? I assume they sold it for future development. Or maybe they were always leasing that space ?

As for Eglinton, I had the opportunity to peak through. All the pits and space for hoist appear to still be there. And the service line is there as well. But as @Northern Light lights mentioned, all that will be redeveloped anyways. It's a shame that TTC couldn't get a new bus terminal at Eglinton station as part of the LRT project.

Danforth is being used for storage material as well. With the original storage building demolished. The main maintenance area and body shop is still intact. But messing is the fuel pumps. TTC still has to update Danforth for fire code compliance anyways, for both inactive facility as well. Which is a cost in itself.

But after 25 years, TTC had plenty of time do something with both properties. And address or give proposals for operating needs.
Click to expand...
Why not just let people WFH? As someone who worked at a place with "deep climate pledges" forcing everyone in 5 days a week outdid every single "green" change they've done till that point.
 
RapidTransit said:
I don't see TTC fixing up older garages or making a downtown garage a priority.
But from a core operational need, it should be looked at. I get the lack of space downtown, but as mentioned , a multi level garage could potentially help with land use.

TTC also has situation where they lease too many officers spaces for staff and management positions, which should be a bigger priority. Unless TTC sees leasing office space a better use of money than actually owning the building. Many companies appear to be leasing than owning the building as well.

TTC has storage space on Unwin. I assume for streetcar material. And what's going on with the property by DVP and Lake Shore? I assume they sold it for future development. Or maybe they were always leasing that space ?

As for Eglinton, I had the opportunity to peak through. All the pits and space for hoist appear to still be there. And the service line is there as well. But as @Northern Light lights mentioned, all that will be redeveloped anyways. It's a shame that TTC couldn't get a new bus terminal at Eglinton station as part of the LRT project.

Danforth is being used for storage material as well. With the original storage building demolished. The main maintenance area and body shop is still intact. But messing is the fuel pumps. TTC still has to update Danforth for fire code compliance anyways, for both inactive facility as well. Which is a cost in itself.

But after 25 years, TTC had plenty of time do something with both properties. And address or give proposals for operating needs.
Click to expand...
For a few years the TTC leased space at the former Sunlight Factory @ DVP/Lake Shore. They used it to store rail (all streetcar, I think) and lay out special trackwork to be sure it all fitted properly. When they were thrown out of that site (demolition etc) they moved to land on Unwin & Leslie. It is basically an open space with some Portacabins.
 
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