Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[drum118]

I seriously doubt the impact is only 6 minutes, either considering change in headway or length of trip during rush hour.

You didn't answer the question though - why don't we shut down the downtown line to do much needed backlog of work (i.e. Not regular maintenance)? I expect shuttle busses there would be no more average impact on terms of time taken, if you throw enough busses at it....

You should ask the folks in Kitchener/Waterloo that question for their LRT and it will be the same for Scarborough.

3 years wait to get service to 3 times the area of one subway stop and 30 years after they were to have service will be a winner all the way to the bank. They will not have to pay the taxes to build the LRT like they have to with the one stop subway or 2.

TTC needs to get off the pot as there are plans in place to deal with the various issues they claim that are an issues at this time.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

seriously doubt the impact is only 6 minutes, either considering change in headway or length of trip during rush hour.

6 minutes is the average expected delay for the SRT shutdown. I recall the TTC adding nearly 10 minutes to trips across the day to accommodate Eglinton Line construction, but I have to go back into the Service Summary to be certain.

The reason the SRT shutdown adds only 6 minutes is because buses will run on a much tighter headway than the SRT does; for example; you might be waiting only 1 minute for a bus vs 5 minutes for the SRT. This offsets a lot of the travel time delay. People on Eglinton don't get the benefit of increased bus headways, thus their delays are greater.

Based on my own experiences with buses running adjacent to the SRT, 6 minutes seems quite reasonable to me.

You didn't answer the question though - why don't we shut down the downtown line to do much needed backlog of work (i.e. Not regular maintenance)?

We do. The subway has been shut down for countless weekends to accommodate installation of Automatic Train Operation. We had the option of installing ATO without shutting down Line 1, but that would've been unreasonably costly and would take too much time.

Line 1 will also be shut down for an extended period of time to accommodate installation of Eglinton Line.

Line 1 and downtown streercar service will also likely be suspended for Relief Line construction as well.

Ummm I think Scarborough has been "dealing" with it for 50 years. Gimme a break, I love the people who never even bothered to visit Scarborough (mostly downtown folks) not understanding just how disconnected it is to the rest of this city.

I've lived in Scarbrough, worked there and gone to school there from years, commuting daily from the Rouge Park area to downtown. I think I have a pretty good understanding of how disconnected it is. I also understand that this 1-stop subway extension will do little to correct these problems. In my case, it would only save 1 min on average, and be slower than the Crosstown East

 

[drum118]

Might sound like a dumb question, but I've asked it before and am wondering if there's a consensus as to the answer. That is: can we still use the SRT's at-grade portion of the Stouffville corridor (whether as current SRT, S(L)RT, or a SSE 'surface' alignment) - with enough space left over for RER and RER+/SmrtTrack?

I think this is a fundamental lynchpin in all plans, and is at least one of the leading reasons for the SSE to go through. Namely, that the Prov wants the entire stretch of Stouffville GO through Scarb and requires that no RT service runs along it by 2031 (in order to provide the promised frequencies and Yonge 'relief' potential).

If you want to convert the SRT to a SmartTrain/RER, you could run it at grade in places, but far better off doing a full grade separation in the long run. There is enough ROW existing to do it, but like the LRT plan, you need to buy some land and doing some tunneling.

Going the SmartTrain/RER route offer more to Scarborough than a subway or an LRT. If the LRT was a tram-train, them its the same as SmartTrain/RER.

 

[salsa]

To anyone who thinks shutting down the RT for 3 years is acceptable short-term pain, let me ask this: Would it also be acceptable "short-term" pain to shut down the lower loop of YUS for some extended period of time to get all the signal and track improvements done? I bet it would save a ton of money too!

So according to you, long term infrastructure should be designed based on construction impact rather than what's best for moving people in a growing city, even at a substantially higher cost. Because 60 years later, people like you are probably still whining about how disruptive it was to construct the Yonge subway.

You didn't answer the question though - why don't we shut down the downtown line to do much needed backlog of work (i.e. Not regular maintenance)?

Because it's not necessary to do that?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Anyone who complains about disruptions to build transit needs to watch this video, paying close attention to the lyrics

 

[andrewpmk]

To anyone who thinks shutting down the RT for 3 years is acceptable short-term pain, let me ask this: Would it also be acceptable "short-term" pain to shut down the lower loop of YUS for some extended period of time to get all the signal and track improvements done? I bet it would save a ton of money too!

Would it be possible to electrify the Stouffville line first to reduce disruption?

 

[44 North]

If you want to convert the SRT to a SmartTrain/RER, you could run it at grade in places, but far better off doing a full grade separation in the long run. There is enough ROW existing to do it, but like the LRT plan, you need to buy some land and doing some tunneling.

Going the SmartTrain/RER route offer more to Scarborough than a subway or an LRT. If the LRT was a tram-train, them its the same as SmartTrain/RER.

Wasn't really advocating any one solution, or fantasy solutions. I guess the basis of my question is: how many tracks can fit in the Eglinton-Ellesmere section of the Stouffville corridor, and how many tracks will Stouffville RER/SmartTrack East require thru this stretch?

 

[dowlingm]

One thing that strikes me reading Steve Munro's piece about how Metrolinx has changed the design of Kennedy Station: didn't TTC have to approve these changes, since it impacts their asset?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Wasn't really advocating any one solution, or fantasy solutions. I guess the basis of my question is: how many tracks can fit in the Eglinton-Ellesmere section of the Stouffville corridor, and how many tracks will Stouffville RER/SmartTrack East require thru this stretch?

At least 4, according to Metrolinx. But really as many tracks as we deem necessary, if we're willing to do the property acquisition

 

[Cobra]

Transit constriction always will cause delays. The TTC's accommodations for Eglinton Line construction are actually greater in magnitude, in terms of minutes delayed, than what is anticipated for the Line 3 SRT shutdown. I've been dealing with these disruptions for years now and we're surviving fine.

The disruptions in Scarbrough were expected to be a 6 min delay for 3 years; Eglinton will face longer delays across nearly a decade. If Eglinton can deal with it, so can Scarbrough.

I wasn't around for Line 2 or Line 1 construction, but I bet they were far worse than the disruptions for even Line 3 or even Line 5

You're shutting down an existing rapid transit line that is at overcapacity and unable to accommodate more users...Eglinton only had bus service...That's a very poor comparison

 

[Cobra]

I absolutely would.

You're the only one who would. They tried it in Washington DC for like 1 day and it was CHAOS...Imagine 3 years

 

[Cobra]

And they could at least build a diagonal tunnel to Lawrence East since the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.

That would require more expropriations, likely to cost more...if that makes sense

 

[TheTigerMaster]

You're shutting down an existing rapid transit line that is at overcapacity and unable to accommodate more users...Eglinton only had bus service...That's a very poor comparison

And why does that matter, when it was expected that the busses would provide sufficient capacity during the suspension? Throw enough buses at the problem and you'll get people moving.

Ultimately, commuters on Eglinton Line will still face greater delays than those on Scarborugh Line for the duration of construction.

Also, do recall that people will adjust their travel routes to accommodate construction. So it's not as if everyone using the SRT will be using the replacement bus.

 

[Cobra]

You should ask the folks in Kitchener/Waterloo that question for their LRT and it will be the same for Scarborough.

3 years wait to get service to 3 times the area of one subway stop and 30 years after they were to have service will be a winner all the way to the bank. They will not have to pay the taxes to build the LRT like they have to with the one stop subway or 2.

TTC needs to get off the pot as there are plans in place to deal with the various issues they claim that are an issues at this time.

There's a reason pro LRT councillor went subway on that vote when Ford was around. It was the TTC contingency scenario that sway council. TTC didn't hide how nightmarish it would be to shutdown the SRT for 3 years. They clearly wanted nothing to do with it...who can blame them

 

[Cobra]

So according to you, long term infrastructure should be designed based on construction impact rather than what's best for moving people in a growing city, even at a substantially higher cost. Because 60 years later, people like you are probably still whining about how disruptive it was to construct the Yonge subway. Because it's not necessary to do that?

To be fair, that was 60 years ago. Second, they did it right from the get go. If Scarborough RT was done right from the get go, we wouldn't be in this mess. I'm still shocked and amazed how people in this forum are so critical of Scarborough and it's residents when it was a bunch of downtown councillors and suburbs/rural MPPs that screwed Scarborough from the get go...and you people are surprised at the residents' backlash????

You guys are too much and are sounding more and more ridiculous.