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TTC: Major Operational Issues (Various)

I'm just going to leave this here without many words, because this is just pathetic at this point:


Oct 10, 2024
View attachment 603245
vs. what we were promised:
View attachment 603246
In the last board meeting, it was made clear that as they uncover more issues with inspections, more RSZs (or ones currently in place) will appear (remain). Just because there is a RSZ, doesn't mean they haven't been fixing problems, but possibly uncovering more defects...
 
In the last board meeting, it was made clear that as they uncover more issues with inspections, more RSZs (or ones currently in place) will appear (remain). Just because there is a RSZ, doesn't mean they haven't been fixing problems, but possibly uncovering more defects...
I'm not buying what they're selling. It's been months of having these restricted speed zones along the exact same sections of track, and they already conducted a mass swath of inspections on these stretches. I highly, highly doubt that they magically discovered more defects along the same stretches that were supposed to be lifted over the past 2 weeks.

My point here is, if you say you're aiming to lift speed restrictions around a certain date, and they havent been lifted along multiple sections of those same areas, then there's something seriously wrong with what's being done.

This has been going on since the start of 2024, and while this whole situation started because of Rick Leary's idiocy and stupidity, there's no reason for us to tolerate this continued non-sense.
 
I'm not buying what they're selling. It's been months of having these restricted speed zones along the exact same sections of track, and they already conducted a mass swath of inspections on these stretches. I highly, highly doubt that they magically discovered more defects along the same stretches that were supposed to be lifted over the past 2 weeks.

My point here is, if you say you're aiming to lift speed restrictions around a certain date, and they havent been lifted along multiple sections of those same areas, then there's something seriously wrong with what's being done.

This has been going on since the start of 2024, and while this whole situation started because of Rick Leary's idiocy and stupidity, there's no reason for us to tolerate this continued non-sense.
That area near davisville has always had issues and the only real way to fix it is to dig up the whole track bed and redo it.

As for the other areas they should be able to fix it, but given that track laid sleepers that are bolted into concrete, how does that go out of alignment? You have to rip up the concrete and pour a new slab to adjust the track profile by 1mm? Something does not add up.
 
I'm not buying what they're selling. It's been months of having these restricted speed zones along the exact same sections of track, and they already conducted a mass swath of inspections on these stretches. I highly, highly doubt that they magically discovered more defects along the same stretches that were supposed to be lifted over the past 2 weeks.

My point here is, if you say you're aiming to lift speed restrictions around a certain date, and they havent been lifted along multiple sections of those same areas, then there's something seriously wrong with what's being done.

This has been going on since the start of 2024, and while this whole situation started because of Rick Leary's idiocy and stupidity, there's no reason for us to tolerate this continued non-sense.
Inspections are done daily or weekly or monthly, depending on the type and what they are looking for.

What was okay a week ago may deteriorate and now require a slow order to prevent further damage until it can be fixed.

Track is not some magical thing where you put it down and it stays the same forever. It is a consumable. It has a lifespan. And in cases like ballasted track, the ballast is its own thing with its own lifespan, and its own requirements.

Dan
 
I'm not buying what they're selling. It's been months of having these restricted speed zones along the exact same sections of track
If you haven't already, I recommend watching the board meeting where they discuss the RSZs (starting around the 46 minute mark).

I don't think they are the same exact sections of track....since May they've removed 65 RSZs but added 85!

Part of the problem is that it takes an average of 22 days to resolve each defect - I'm unclear if that also accounts for the post-inspection and loading activities that have to happen 48-72hrs after repair for open cuts. In addition (and maybe a bigger issue), they have a tight ~90 minute maintenance window - which of course is not just for RSZs but all other projects on the go. There's also the issue of the work cars....

My point here is, if you say you're aiming to lift speed restrictions around a certain date, and they havent been lifted along multiple sections of those same areas, then there's something seriously wrong with what's being done.
I think the communication needs improvement here...From the TTCs point of view, they are removing RSZs, but are discovering more issues (and adding others) within the same large section of track - those sections are hundreds of metres long - which would appear as if they aren't doing anything or meeting their targets.

This has been going on since the start of 2024, and while this whole situation started because of Rick Leary's idiocy and stupidity, there's no reason for us to tolerate this continued non-sense.
I'm not sure what you're proposing here, but I don't think removal of RSZs is appropriate. I think we aren't tolerating the nonsense of poor? track inspection and maintenance and hence the implementation of RSZs. Again, in the video, Fort talks about changes in inspection procedures (biannual track survey) that our current interim CEO supports.

I also wonder if the TTC has an inspection problem: Fort highlights they are working to improve the skillset of their inspectors - to me this may suggest they could be missing things during inspections... the SRT derailment being exhibit #1.

Finally, I found it interesting that Fort mentioned in his presentation that other transit agencies have other infrastructure to perform maintenance without impacting service...I think some questions around this are warranted. They are looking to purchase ultrasonic equipment in the next 2-3 years, of which they are currently renting contributing to the slower than usual work.
 
Finally, I found it interesting that Fort mentioned in his presentation that other transit agencies have other infrastructure to perform maintenance without impacting service...I think some questions around this are warranted.

Places like NYC do have this capability as they have alternate tracks they can use.

Unfortunately Toronto is not designed with such trackwork and can't simply by-pass construction work.

They tried this with the Wye Junction in 2008 and it was a complete disaster. They diverted trains down University for a seamless transfer.
 
What was okay a week ago may deteriorate and now require a slow order to prevent further damage until it can be fixed.

You make is sound like it is a banana you bought at the grocery store last week instead of a system of steel rails clamped down the earth. Why weren't defects like this popping up until very recently (but our system has been around for decades). Does this happen on Go or CN/CP tracks too but we just dont hear about them? I don't think they are faking this or it is some big conspiracy - but I do wonder about the resource allocation of management and the productivity of the unionized work force doing the day-to-day work.
 
You make is sound like it is a banana you bought at the grocery store last week instead of a system of steel rails clamped down the earth. Why weren't defects like this popping up until very recently (but our system has been around for decades). Does this happen on Go or CN/CP tracks too but we just dont hear about them? I don't think they are faking this or it is some big conspiracy - but I do wonder about the resource allocation of management and the productivity of the unionized work force doing the day-to-day work.
But isn't the preventative maintenance plan intended to keep the track in a state of good repair? The fact that this is not happening means that there is something wrong with the way they maintain the track. One section here or there is acceptable but 25% of the whole system having issues is another thing. Maybe we need to do what Boston did and close the system for a week and fix all the problems.
 
Finally, I found it interesting that Fort mentioned in his presentation that other transit agencies have other infrastructure to perform maintenance without impacting service...I think some questions around this are warranted.
One example of "other infrastructure to perform maintenance without impacting service" are express tracks as seen in NYC. Other systems (especially fully automated ones) can run limited service on one track, or use crossovers to bypass work areas - lots of Line 1 is in shared tunnel with the other track though.

Furthermore, Toronto lacks alternate routes for riders to take when work is happening - something that the Ontario line will help with in future!
 
You make is sound like it is a banana you bought at the grocery store last week instead of a system of steel rails clamped down the earth.
The nature of which is such that sections of track (particularly outdoors) are prone to settlement which exceeds tolerance and necessitates track work and slow zones.
Why weren't defects like this popping up until very recently
They have been the whole time. That's how railways work. There have been periodic slow orders on certain track sections fairly frequently going back as long as I can remember (especially the original outdoor sections between Bloor and Eglinton)
(but our system has been around for decades).
And has required regular maintenance that whole time, and more of it as it continues to age.
Does this happen on Go or CN/CP tracks too but we just dont hear about them?
Yes. There are also weekend closures (affecting GO service) in which the necessary work is performed. But the TTC is running trains over its tracks every couple minutes for 20ish hours per day every day, while GO/CN/CP rails get more of a reprieve and thus don't wear the same way.
I don't think they are faking this or it is some big conspiracy - but I do wonder about the resource allocation of management and the productivity of the unionized work force doing the day-to-day work.
Workers, unionized or not, can only really perform the work they're given with the tools they're given. TTC management in recent years has placed less emphasis on maintenance (both in terms of standards and frequency) and allowed the work fleet to fall into disrepair—partly out of Leary's incompetence and laziness, partly due to working under multiple levels of government running austerity budgets—such that they can't perform the necessary work where it needs to be done when it needs to be done. Whether or not the people doing the work are unionized is entirely irrelevant in this case, because non-union workers would still be dealing with limited windows to perform work (either overnight or in the span of one weekend), limited equipment (as something like a quarter of the rail work fleet is out of service and god knows how many are barely hanging on and spilling oil all over the tracks), and a limited budget to actually deploy the number of workers required to perform the work TTC management has ultimately created for itself.
 
You make is sound like it is a banana you bought at the grocery store last week instead of a system of steel rails clamped down the earth.
I think that's a bit simplistic. Maybe a better comparison is rubber tires on an asphalt road. Both of those are consumables, and can very quickly go from "okay" to "not okay" if the situation arises (think a pothole, or an a worn tire with the threads showing).

Why weren't defects like this popping up until very recently (but our system has been around for decades).
They were popping up for decades. Slow orders have always been around.

Maybe a lot of readers here were too young to remember, but things were really bad shortly after David Gunn took the reigns. There were just as many slow orders on the system, maybe more. I recall trips that should have taken 12 minutes taking 25 or more.

Does this happen on Go or CN/CP tracks too but we just dont hear about them?
All of the time. The main advantage of the mainline railways, however, is that if their equipment bites the bullet that there are a number of other outfits that they can rent the required machinery, and usually within several hours notice.

I don't think they are faking this or it is some big conspiracy - but I do wonder about the resource allocation of management and the productivity of the unionized work force doing the day-to-day work.
I don't think that there is resource allocation problem per se. My understanding is that the track crews are working their proverbial asses off. They are getting a lot of overtime to fix all of the issues.

But there is definitely an issue with maintaining the machinery needed to perform the maintenance. And that's not just with the work equipment, either.

Dan
 
If you haven't already, I recommend watching the board meeting where they discuss the RSZs (starting around the 46 minute mark).

I don't think they are the same exact sections of track....since May they've removed 65 RSZs but added 85!

Part of the problem is that it takes an average of 22 days to resolve each defect - I'm unclear if that also accounts for the post-inspection and loading activities that have to happen 48-72hrs after repair for open cuts. In addition (and maybe a bigger issue), they have a tight ~90 minute maintenance window - which of course is not just for RSZs but all other projects on the go. There's also the issue of the work cars....

I don't think that there is resource allocation problem per se. My understanding is that the track crews are working their proverbial asses off. They are getting a lot of overtime to fix all of the issues.

But there is definitely an issue with maintaining the machinery needed to perform the maintenance. And that's not just with the work equipment, either.
With what's being said, and from reading the reports and listening to the meeting, I'm genuinely curious if the fixes are being applied properly from the first time around when they are worked on. I have seen a quite a few cases this year where there is a slow zone that's rectified, only to be re-instituted just a few days later.

I understand that inspections will catch things, but when you are constantly adding slow zones (especially around the same areas) something's just not adding up with what's being done. While tracks and ballast need replacing and attending to, if you're constantly replacing or attending to track especially relatively straightforward trackage in tunnels then it becomes easy to suspect something odd an severely abnormal is in play.
 
With what's being said, and from reading the reports and listening to the meeting, I'm genuinely curious if the fixes are being applied properly from the first time around when they are worked on. I have seen a quite a few cases this year where there is a slow zone that's rectified, only to be re-instituted just a few days later.
It depends on what the fix is.

As an example, if there's a gauge issue replacing the rail may temporarily fix the issue until it gets worn or moves again. And the problem with a system as intensively used as a subway is that those things can happen in quite short order.

Sometimes the problem being fixed is a symptom, and not the cause.

I understand that inspections will catch things, but when you are constantly adding slow zones (especially around the same areas) something's just not adding up with what's being done. While tracks and ballast need replacing and attending to, if you're constantly replacing or attending to track especially relatively straightforward trackage in tunnels then it becomes easy to suspect something odd an severely abnormal is in play.
And this is part of the problem. The issues with ties-in-ballast may go far deeper (both literally and metaphorically) than just the track itself. So fixing the problem only ends up being a short-term fix, and if the problems are particularly acute underneath the track structure than it can't be expected that the solution will last for very long at all.

But it should be noted that a lot of the slow orders are located on stretches that aren't using ties-in-ballast. There are stretches on the more modern track built with double ties, and stretches on slab track. Both are supposed to be far more durable from a maintenance standpoint - so what is going on that is causing these? And the problem may be that there is no singular answer. If they are short on supplies for the double ties and short on manpower for the slab track, both will show up as problems even though the solutions are different.

And I guess this is the problem from the outside looking in. The TTC has not (that I'm aware of) given a detailed accounting of exactly what the problem is at each location, the way it needs to be fixed, and the manpower allocation for it. Certainly no one that I know of there has access to this kind of information, so short of a Freedom of Information request I'm not sure how any of us are supposed to know. And thus, build our expectations.

Dan
 
It appears as though the TTC's focus on addressing the subway track problems given the attention the restricted speed zones have been receiving - a fallout may be a reduction in maintenance of the streetcar tracks - assuming the same maintenance and repair crews are used on both. There are notable rail breaks in the King Street car tracks which have not been addressed. Repairs to a break on Bathurst Street between King and Queen Street were scheduled and then cancelled, have not yet been rescheduled. In prior years, these would have been addressed by now.

Random photos of the King Street track conditions between Spadina and Bathurst.

20241001_143849.jpg


20241001_143903.jpg


20241001_143852.jpg
 
It appears as though the TTC's focus on addressing the subway track problems given the attention the restricted speed zones have been receiving - a fallout may be a reduction in maintenance of the streetcar tracks - assuming the same maintenance and repair crews are used on both. There are notable rail breaks in the King Street car tracks which have not been addressed. Repairs to a break on Bathurst Street between King and Queen Street were scheduled and then cancelled, have not yet been rescheduled. In prior years, these would have been addressed by now.

Random photos of the King Street track conditions between Spadina and Bathurst.

View attachment 603740

View attachment 603741

View attachment 603742
There are LOTS of sections of King which have poor streetcar track - in particular, as shown here, where the concrete on the 'margins' between track and asphalt has deteriorated. The TTC is (too slowly) replacing all of the track on King. This year they did work around Strachan. In 2025 they plan to do:

Project: Track Replacement (Tangent Track)
Location: KING ST W
From: CLOSE AVE
To: DUFFERIN ST
Details: Replacement of the streetcar tracks/rails and the underlying support materials.

They will also do King & Church which has had MANY problems in recent years:

Project: Track Replacement (Special Track)
Location: KING ST E
Near: CHURCH ST FORMER TORONTO


In 2025-2026 they will do:

Project: Track Replacement (Tangent Track)
Location: KING ST W
From: SHAW ST
To: BATHURST STD
Details: Replacement of the streetcar tracks/rails.

Should they do more and do it faster, yes. The section from about Yonge to Parliament was done in 2002 or 2003 so is now at or past its 20 year expected lifetime mark.
 

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