TTC: Jane (LRT) RapidTO

[north-of-anything]

We're not elevating Finch West, though. Tracks are being laid in the median already, no sense changing that now. And east of Keele, there's really nowhere that warrants grade separation more than the rest of the corridor until you reach Bathurst to the east.

Back to the thread's topic, grade-separating a Jane LRT might be feasible, but I'm not sure on the benefits of elevating the entire line. I think separation is especially valuable south of Weston, where Jane first enters a floodplain and then narrows to where a dedicated lane isn't feasible. We could also keep it elevated adjacent to the CPKC tracks and run it from Jane/Dundas to Bloor GO...

 

[jmi22]

We're not elevating Finch West, though. Tracks are being laid in the median already, no sense changing that now. And east of Keele, there's really nowhere that warrants grade separation more than the rest of the corridor until you reach Bathurst to the east.

Back to the thread's topic, grade-separating a Jane LRT might be feasible, but I'm not sure on the benefits of elevating the entire line. I think separation is especially valuable south of Weston, where Jane first enters a floodplain and then narrows to where a dedicated lane isn't feasible. We could also keep it elevated adjacent to the CPKC tracks and run it from Jane/Dundas to Bloor GO...

Fast reliable transit is a goal in of itself. Is this not unanimous within the planning community? Jane is one of the most important transportation corridors in the city why are we asking "is it worth it". Such a backwards approach

 

[north-of-anything]

Fast reliable transit is a goal in of itself. Is this not unanimous within the planning community? Jane is one of the most important transportation corridors in the city why are we asking "is it worth it". Such a backwards approach

Will we get additional return on investment from a grade-separated line that we won't get from a separated, ground-level corridor? Especially in areas where we have a wide right-of-way and limited opportunities to intensify, like over the Kitchener GO tracks.
Yes, we should have fast reliable transit from end to end in the city, but on what dime?

 

[Rainforest]

I promise you that the collective effort of Canadian engineering will be able to build a viaduct over an existing bridge. Have you seen the 401/427 interchange? This is giving me flashbacks to the "we can't build the ontario line because crossing the don valley is very hard".

(almost) Everything is possible with enough funding. But that's more than one bridge. Thus, a long high guideway; what does that do to access times from the street level.

Finch West subway station is underground. Transfer time from an elevated LRT line will be +5 min compared to a transfer between two underground stations. Given that many Finch LRT riders will transfer to/from the subway, those 5 extra minutes kind of negate the saving from the better speed. Or, can dip from elevated to underground for the subway connection; that means blocking the street median for a few hundred meters.

Not saying it isn't possible to elevate; but doubt the overall outcome is appealing enough to bother.

 

[Rainforest]

Back to the thread's topic, grade-separating a Jane LRT might be feasible, but I'm not sure on the benefits of elevating the entire line. I think separation is especially valuable south of Weston, where Jane first enters a floodplain and then narrows to where a dedicated lane isn't feasible. We could also keep it elevated adjacent to the CPKC tracks and run it from Jane/Dundas to Bloor GO...

I don't know enough about the whole route; but it should be noted that elevated doesn't mean no space on the ground needed. The support columns have to stand somewhere. Thus, I doubt elevated saves the day south of Dundas, where Jane is particularly narrow.

Adjacent to the CPKC tracks might be a better bet, if space in the rail corridor is available. Not sure if it is available though, hard to see on the maps.

My feeling is that Jane LRT in any form is a long shot anyway. The queue of unfunded LRT projects is quite long. Waterfront East, Eglinton East, the extension of ECLRT to Pearson, and the extensions of Finch both west and east will probably happen ahead of Jane.

 

[ARG1]

Finch West subway station is underground. Transfer time from an elevated LRT line will be +5 min compared to a transfer between two underground stations. Given that many Finch LRT riders will transfer to/from the subway, those 5 extra minutes kind of negate the saving from the better speed. Or, can dip from elevated to underground for the subway connection; that means blocking the street median for a few hundred meters.

Not saying it isn't possible to elevate; but doubt the overall outcome is appealing enough to bother.

I'm not exactly in favour of a Finch West El, but for what its worth there's nothing precluding Finch West from being an underground station, then going elevated via a portal (odds are that's how it would be built). This is before we bring up just how bad the transfer at Finch West is planned to be where I'm actually not convinced that the transfer to the LRT would be that much faster than a transfer to an elevated station. In fact I'm pretty sure the transfer between the Flushing and Queens Boulevard Lines at Jackson Heights Station in NYC is a faster transfer than what we're getting at Finch West despite that also being an elevated to underground station interchange.

 

[dkt]

I'm not exactly in favour of a Finch West El, but for what its worth there's nothing precluding Finch West from being an underground station, then going elevated via a portal (odds are that's how it would be built). This is before we bring up just how bad the transfer at Finch West is planned to be where I'm actually not convinced that the transfer to the LRT would be that much faster than a transfer to an elevated station. In fact I'm pretty sure the transfer between the Flushing and Queens Boulevard Lines at Jackson Heights Station in NYC is a faster transfer than what we're getting at Finch West despite that also being an elevated to underground station interchange.

Is it that bad? Wasn't the subway station built with an LRT transfer in mind?

 

[Railrunner]

I don't know enough about the whole route; but it should be noted that elevated doesn't mean no space on the ground needed. The support columns have to stand somewhere. Thus, I doubt elevated saves the day south of Dundas, where Jane is particularly narrow.

Adjacent to the CPKC tracks might be a better bet, if space in the rail corridor is available. Not sure if it is available though, hard to see on the maps.

My feeling is that Jane LRT in any form is a long shot anyway. The queue of unfunded LRT projects is quite long. Waterfront East, Eglinton East, the extension of ECLRT to Pearson, and the extensions of Finch both west and east will probably happen ahead of Jane.

Probably, Finch East extension to Finch (2033), Finch/Eglinton to Pearson (2034), Waterfront East LRT (not the same scale as other projects but 2030), Then finally among the projects you listed I would say Jane LRT will probably be announced in 2029 for 2036 completion. By 2029 Crosstown will open Ontario Line will be almost open as will the Yonge extension, Scarborough Line 2 will be well on the way with completion in 2 years and I could see incentive to begin work on a Jane LRT especially if the Finch LRT is on track to be fully realized by the end of the decade. Of course the wild card to all of this is a Sheppard Subway extension because we have no idea on how far west that might go and tie in with a potential Jane LRT and also we need to consider the future of the OL west when discussing Jane LRT. Although, Jane LRT >>> OL West right now.

 

[ARG1]

Is it that bad? Wasn't the subway station built with an LRT transfer in mind?

It was built with it in mind in the sense that they allocated room for where to put the LRT platforms, what they didn't do was actually design a convenient transfer. Its been a while since I saw the schematic so I might be misremembering some details but the subway platforms are situated north of the Keele/Finch intersection, so you have to reach the concourse and walk south under where the intersection is, then you need 2 more escalators to get onto the LRT platforms. This ain't no Bloor-Yonge, St. George, or Sheppard-Yonge.

 

[Rainforest]

It was built with it in mind in the sense that they allocated room for where to put the LRT platforms, what they didn't do was actually design a convenient transfer. Its been a while since I saw the schematic so I might be misremembering some details but the subway platforms are situated north of the Keele/Finch intersection, so you have to reach the concourse and walk south under where the intersection is, then you need 2 more escalators to get onto the LRT platforms. This ain't no Bloor-Yonge, St. George, or Sheppard-Yonge.

Even if so .. we are discussing hypothetical options, what could have been. No chance for actually rebuilding the LRT/subway connection that's already built, or elevating the LRT line that's almost built.

In that view, creating a fast underground-to-underground connection is easier than creating a fast elevated-to-underground connection.

 

[ARG1]

In that view, creating a fast underground-to-underground connection is easier than creating a fast elevated-to-underground connection.

Again, nothing stopping from having the El go underground for this station, and we're still dealing with the limitations of the undergroud box that was built alongside the TYSSE.

 

[Rainforest]

Again, nothing stopping from having the El go underground for this station, and we're still dealing with the limitations of the undergroud box that was built alongside the TYSSE.

Sure, not stopping, but doesn't that make the design more convoluted? There would be a stretch a few hundred meters long where the El descends to the ground level, nothing can cross the street along that stretch.

And then still have to deal with the Bolton rail line / hydro wires/ the 400, all crossing over Finch. All can be done if needed, but is it really worth the effort.

 

[afransen]

Elevated maybe fine in some spots but the issue is grade separation. It’s not needed in most of the suburbs with wide arterials that can support simply a dedicated lane. Look at highway 7 brt. It’s more than fine for the needs of York Region. It’s just under serviced due to YRT poor decisions .

You're never going to achieve high average speeds without grade separation. And reliability becomes a problem when this is not an infrequent occurrence.

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[afransen]

Will we get additional return on investment from a grade-separated line that we won't get from a separated, ground-level corridor? Especially in areas where we have a wide right-of-way and limited opportunities to intensify, like over the Kitchener GO tracks.
Yes, we should have fast reliable transit from end to end in the city, but on what dime?

Automated operation, allowing for higher frequency at lower cost? Higher average speed?

 

[Rainforest]

Full grade separation doesn't guarantee accident-free operation though. Still get broken trains, disturbed people at the track level etc from time to time.

Certainly not against having a few fast, grade-separated trunk lines across the city. But in case of Finch West, it may be the right choise to build something that's better than bus and can be build quickly first, i.e. Finch LRT. Not a trunk line, but a substantially improved local line.

And then in 20-30 years, extend the Sheppard subway west, with the route somewhere south of Finch: on Sheppard, Wilson, Hwy 401, or a combination of those. That will serve as the trunk line, running reasonably close to both the Rexdale and the Central Etobicoke.