TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[MetroMan]

This confirms the need for the TTC to diversify its fleet and order the additional cars from another manufacturer. Can you imagine if another defect is found that grounds all the Bombardier cars due to safety? No streetcars in Toronto. We need at least half the fleet built by someone else. And if that’s not a good enough reason, then go with Bombardier being a shit company, completely incompetent and untrustworthy.

 

[robmausser]

This confirms the need for the TTC to diversify its fleet and order the additional cars from another manufacturer. Can you imagine if another defect is found that grounds all the Bombardier cars due to safety? No streetcars in Toronto. We need at least half the fleet built by someone else. And if that’s not a good enough reason, then go with Bombardier being a shit company, completely incompetent and untrustworthy.

Diversifying the fleet brings upon other challenges however, like more spare parts needed, a more complex workforce at the Barns to service the vehicles, more paperwork, etc etc.

If there is anything to learn from the airline industry, one of the only transportation industries that operates on a profit, its that simplifying your fleet is the way to go.

Its how Southwest and WestJet carved out their huge stake in the industry.

While Air Canada and United/Delta/AA struggled with the cost of servicing and maintaining their multi plane fleet, Southwest and WestJet sailed by with their "one size fits all" 737 model.

The only difference is that the 737 is an extremely reliable plane.

Whereas the TTC bought a lemon.

The goal shouldn't be fleet diversification, but rather to tender new streetcars to replace these entirely in the future, from a reliable and trusted maker like Seimens or Alstom.

 

[robmausser]

This isn't something you can sue over. It is warrantied service and Bombardier has carried out in full it's legal obligations to alert the customer of discovered defects and devised a plan of action to remedy the defects.

The TTC should try and strike a deal however for an additional order of streetcars, free of charge for the delays and issues. Simply to cover the loss of a streetcar every 19 weeks.

It worked for Montreal.

http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/montreals-stm-to-receive-two-free-azur-metro-trains

 

[nfitz]

The only difference is that the 737 is an extremely reliable plane.

Whereas the TTC bought a lemon.

The 737 isn't judged by whether it is recalled for repairs or not. Not sure I understand the panic here.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-boeing-737max-engine-idUSKBN1862O9

The TTC should try and strike a deal however for an additional order of streetcars, free of charge for the delays and issues. Simply to cover the loss of a streetcar every 19 weeks.

With reports that only 3 or 4 cars will be sent back at a time, how do you justify the 60-car order?

 

[MetroMan]

The goal shouldn't be fleet diversification, but rather to tender new streetcars to replace these entirely in the future, from a reliable and trusted maker like Seimens or Alstom.

Then, let's start now. The TTC has a very good legal case to put a stop to the order. Let Bombardier supply a certain number of cars until Alstom can start delivering their cars and eventually have most of the fleet be a reliable car, not these lemons that Bombardier has been supplying.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Then, let's start now. The TTC has a very good legal case to put a stop to the order. Let Bombardier supply a certain number of cars until Alstom can start delivering their cars and eventually have most of the fleet be a reliable car, not these lemons that Bombardier has been supplying.

I agree. There's no point throwing more good money after bad in the name of ease and apparent expedience.

Does Bombardier have any other customers in North America for their Flexity Freedom design outside of Toronto and KW?

 

[smallspy]

Then, let's start now. The TTC has a very good legal case to put a stop to the order. Let Bombardier supply a certain number of cars until Alstom can start delivering their cars and eventually have most of the fleet be a reliable car, not these lemons that Bombardier has been supplying.

What makes you think that Alstom would be able to design and begin to ship a car inside of the 4+ years it took Bombardier?

By that logic, Bombardier will have finished not only the 204 car original order, but may very well have completed the 60 car option order as well.

Now, that said - the sooner that the TTC can get the ball rolling on a new tender for 100 additional cars to follow on to those, the better.

Does Bombardier have any other customers in North America for their Flexity Freedom design outside of Toronto and KW?

Edmonton's first car is enroute to them now.

As well, the Freedom is simply a plus-sized, North American version of the Flexity2 currently used in Blackpool, south of Brisbane, Basel and Antwerp.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[M II A II R II K]

It’ll be 19 weeks per car, one at a time.

 

[nfitz]

Then, let's start now. The TTC has a very good legal case to put a stop to the order. Let Bombardier supply a certain number of cars until Alstom can start delivering their cars and eventually have most of the fleet be a reliable car, not these lemons that Bombardier has been supplying.

What Alstom cars?

Alstom has no product, and didn't even respond to the recent RFI for a future streetcar order!

A new order would not see ANY deliveries until at least 2025. Meanwhile we have a working product, that's finally arriving in large quantities.

Not adding the extra 60-cars now (while looking at other suppliers for the next order of about 100 cars) seems like a no brainer.

Suggesting cancelling the current 204-car order seems poorly thought out. And very, very expensive! The second-place bidder last time, wanted about $7.5 million a car - which is about double what the next 60 cars will cost.

 

[Branden Simon]

TTC 4488 has arrived at Hillcrust yard

 

[Admiral Beez]

What makes you think that Alstom would be able to design and begin to ship a car inside of the 4+ years it took Bombardier?

Is Siemens-Alstom going to take as long as Bombardier to design and deliver vehicles for the Eglinton Crosstown? Streetcars are Siemens-Alstom's wheelhouse, judging by their top position in the global market. There must be a reason that the resurgence in LRTs and streetcars in the USA has led to no business for the Flexity program.

Edmonton's first car is enroute to them now

And I bet Edmonton's procurement team is mighty worried that they just bought a lemon. They were in 2016.....

‘The city does have options’: Edmonton mayor monitoring Bombardier delays in Toronto
https://globalnews.ca/news/2661910/...ayor-monitoring-bombardier-delays-in-toronto/

Will Bombardier agree to cover the cost to ship it back to Montreal for re-welding, like the TTC's vehicles?

As well, the Freedom is simply a plus-sized, North American version of the Flexity2 currently used in Blackpool, south of Brisbane, Basel and Antwerp.

Really, so those models were built in Mexico and then shipped to Europe and Oz for final assembly? Did their cabs line up correctly with the chassis, or did they need to crowbar things to fit? And how were the welds? If Toronto's models are simply local versions of existing vehicles, suggesting Bombardier should have experience in this model, why did we have these problems?

I'm not buying it. Finish the current procurement with BBR, and ask Siemens-Alstom and others to bid on the Flexity's replacement.

 

[ChesterCopperpot]

once back are they going to have to go through 600km testing again? One would think so. That’s 40,000km of vehicle running and operator time if so. On the other hand, TTC have known since October and still entertaining the idea of exercising the options which may give a sense of how desperate BBD are to make a deal.

The 19 weeks includes the commissioning again

@BenSpurr
Correction to this tweet: the 19 weeks includes the commissioning period. So it's 19 weeks total for the repairs: 2 weeks to ship the cars to La Pocatiere, 12 weeks for maintenance, 2 weeks to ship back to TO, and then 3 weeks for commissioning.

 

[bbdfollower]

Is Siemens-Alstom going to take as long as Bombardier to design and deliver vehicles for the Eglinton Crosstown?

The TTC required a car that can handle minimum curve radii of ~11m, rolls on non-standard TTC-guage track, and can scale a maximum grade of 8%. The Crosstown cars are running on standard-guage tracking, have minimum curve radii of ~25m (more than double the TTCs system) and maximum grade is 5%. They can't just lift and shift their current product to meet TTCs requirements. The amount of modification, testing, and validation that goes into modifying their existing product seems to be greatly underestimated by many folks on here.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The Crosstown cars are running on standard-guage tracking, have minimum curve radii of ~25m (more than double the TTCs system) and maximum grade is 5%..

If it's not an extraordinary spec, why hasn't Bombardier delivered a single vehicle for the Crosstown?

Look, I want to cheer for a Canadian firm that's kicking butt on the market. Has Bombardier Transportation given us anything to be proud of since the TR subways? If you worked at Bombardier Thunder Bay and walked into a bar in Toronto, what could you boast about?

 

[rbt]

If it's not an extraordinary spec, why hasn't Bombardier delivered a single vehicle for the Crosstown?

The customer needs to be willing to accept deliveries. Metrolinx is refusing deliveries until they have a yard to put them in. Warranty starts on delivery (ION discovered this too) so as a customer it's in your interest to delay delivery until the line is ready.

You can find at least one at Bombardier's Millhaven facilities where it's sat since 2016 waiting for Metrolinx. This is the same place Waterloo's cars waited at until they were ready to accept deliveries. There were half-dozen or more of ION cars at Millhaven but they've all been delivered by now.

We also don't know if Metrolinx has finished the design yet (which signalling system, communications hardware, etc. to include and their electrical/space requirements).

Bombardier North America has (perhaps had) some serious issues; Metrolinx doesn't get an automatic pass because of that though.


In the mean time, deliveries to Edmonton have started. Despite ordering later, Edmonton is ready to receive deliveries and as a result is receiving them.