"TTC Facts"

[kEiThZ]

This is not your private soapbox. It's a forum for relevant discussion. If you're tired of something happening, that's your problem. It's not relevant to the community here.

 

[kEiThZ]

I'd assume that the point of the thread is how horrendously wrong and biased the document is. And any attempt to discuss how wrong it is with the authors just get's shot down, rather than discussed - and matches my own communications with the authors.

Again. How is this relevant to UT at all. Go have your shouting matches with them over on Facebook.

 

[nfitz]

Again. How is this relevant to UT at all.

Seems to be just as relevant as any other document out there. It's out there, and people are discussing it. With the falsified information in the document, people are publicly criticizing TTC based on the wrong numbers. TTC is publicly responding to it.

I'm not even aware of where it's being discussed on Facebook ... not sure why it shouldn't be discussed in public.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Well, the personal bits might not be UT material - but the claims of the group certainly is more than legit as a topic on here, I would think.

AoD

 

[kEiThZ]

Seems to be just as relevant as any other document out there. It's out there, and people are discussing it. With the falsified information in the document, people are publicly criticizing TTC based on the wrong numbers. TTC is publicly responding to it.

I'm not even aware of where it's being discussed on Facebook ... not sure why it shouldn't be discussed in public.

First, I've ever heard of these folks.

 

[nfitz]

First, I've ever heard of these folks.

Probably the last, I'd expect.

 

[k10ery]

They don't. How could anyone think something so absurd? The top operator wage rate is $29.05 an hour. How is this any different than the numbers you quote ($28.64 to $30.18 an hour).

Why would you repeat such bizarre drivel?

The $44 figure includes benefits and pension costs. Which I think secretly you already know, nfitz.

 

[nfitz]

The $44 figure includes benefits and pension costs. Which I think secretly you already know, nfitz.

That's not what they say. And we have people here in this forum comparing it to $30 rates at other cites ... which don't include benefits and pensions.

It's clearly an attempt to mislead and anger people.

 

[k10ery]

That's not what they say. And we have people here in this forum comparing it to $30 rates at other cites ... which don't include benefits and pensions.

It's clearly an attempt to mislead and anger people.

Perhaps they don't say so explicitly. But they do cite the TTC annual report as their source which is pretty refreshingly clear. And the TTC annual report has the $44.50/hr (2nd last page). So bizarre drivel seems a bit extreme

Average household income in Toronto in 2006 $52,000. Average for TTC riding households presumably less. You can do the math from there.

 

[Danielinthecity]

Perhaps they don't say so explicitly. But they do cite the TTC annual report as their source which is pretty refreshingly clear. And the TTC annual report has the $44.50/hr (2nd last page). So bizarre drivel seems a bit extreme

Problem with quoting it in this way is most people probably wont take the time to read through the TTC annual report...they'll just hear the $44.50 figure...it's a reflection of the 30 second soundbite world...

...if their intentions were honourable, they could've easily written what the wage rates were without the benefits, etc...this is clearly an attempt to mislead.

 

[k10ery]

Problem with quoting it in this way is most people probably wont take the time to read through the TTC annual report...they'll just hear the $44.50 figure...it's a reflection of the 30 second soundbite world...

...if their intentions were honourable, they could've easily written what the wage rates were without the benefits, etc...this is clearly an attempt to mislead.

OK, I'll agree that they should have reported both the cash wage and the total compensation cost. But that $44.50 is the true cost of an hour of the average employee's time. It's worth talking about.

Instead of saying TTC Facts is misleading, we could say that management and unions in the public sector are misleading the public, pretending that government workers are cheaper than they really are. They do it by keeping cash wages down, and pumping up pensions, benefits, and sick leave provisions to a level that is unusual in the private sector.

 

[nfitz]

So bizarre drivel seems a bit extreme.

But so far we are merely critiquing the first sentence. It goes on, and is equally bad. Later on is a discussion on how subway trains are amortized over 20-30 years, they take great pains to note that we are replacing trains that are less than 20 years old. They are just making this stuff up ...

 

[BMoney]

OK, I'll agree that they should have reported both the cash wage and the total compensation cost. But that $44.50 is the true cost of an hour of the average employee's time. It's worth talking about.

Instead of saying TTC Facts is misleading, we could say that management and unions in the public sector are misleading the public, pretending that government workers are cheaper than they really are. They do it by keeping cash wages down, and pumping up pensions, benefits, and sick leave provisions to a level that is unusual in the private sector.

At the top wage of $29.05 an hour (which isn't unreasonable), that's $15.45/hr of other non-cash compensation such as health and dental, pension, vacation pay, etc. That's more than a 50% burden over the actual cash pay. This is even before you take payroll taxes paid by the TTC into consideration.

Thus, the true cost of the top earning operators is probably closer to 160%+ of their actual cash pay. Where I work, this is 135% - I think you'd be hard pressed to find anything over 140% in the private sector.

 

[nfitz]

At the top wage of $29.05 an hour (which isn't unreasonable), that's $15.45/hr of other non-cash compensation such as health and dental, pension, vacation pay, etc. That's more than a 50% burden over the actual cash pay. This is even before you take payroll taxes paid by the TTC into consideration.

Thus, the true cost of the top earning operators is probably closer to 160%+ of their actual cash pay. Where I work, this is 135% - I think you'd be hard pressed to find anything over 140% in the private sector.

Yes, it is a bit high - but that's a completely different issue, unaddressed by those who wrote that leaflet.

Ideally it would be lower (the mark-up over wages) ... however our pro-union mayor has now stuck us with this by making them an essential service with guaranteed arbitration.

 

[Electrify]

Is this a new movement, or just some guy's angry webpage? Whether it should be discussed or not, making this thread is already giving it too much attention.

With that said, I wonder how much better off we would be if employees were encouraged to unionize and better equipped with the tools to do so. Suddenly improved benefits and livable wages wouldn't seem as outrageous as they do now.