TTC: Electric and alternative fuel buses

[muller877]

That increases infrastructure cost. The TTC is trying to get an almost plug and play solution. And personally, I think that's the smart play. Battery tech is evolving so quickly, that is range turns out to be their only obstacle, conversion to electric will only need to be pushed back a bit.

With the TTC's plan, the don't need any distributed infrastructure. They simply modify the garages and sheds. And they are good to go.

For short range electric bus service the idea is that there will be large savings on electricity and on the cost of the bus itself. You also only have one or two buses to charge at one time so you don't need the large transformer.

This is a trial period and I would hope they would try out the various bus alternatives that are out there. However they are ignoring an alternative that many other transit authorities are experimenting with. I wonder if they had the round hole and now are trying to find the round peg.

 

[crs1026]

^ Depends on the duty cycle and the number of buses. Some go to work at 0500 and stay out until 0100, others do only a few hours at a time and pause long enough at midday to be rechargeable at the garage. You need enough overnight charging infrastructure at the garage to handle the fleet in a short overnight pause.... more than one or two charging points.
What is clearly a dealbreaker is if battery limitations reduces availability and forces larger fleet size, or impairs productivity. No operator can afford to maintain ‘ghost buses’ to replace others when they use up their charge..... nor can they afford greater deadheading to/from the garage to top up. There are enough complexities in scheduling without having to build in swaps for a freshly charged bus.
For that reason, the distributed enroute charge facilities strike me as cheap insurance, even if battery technology is getting really good. And, if it enables smaller and lighter batteries, ie assume a midday or late day en route recharge, it might make the buses a touch more energy efficient and cheaper to buy.
It’s a spreadsheet exercise to find the tradeoff point for sure, but as I say, trusting the bus to work all day without recharge adds a bit of risk. Layman’s logic says, a few distributed chargers can’t hurt.

- Paul

 

[smallspy]

The downside of the short range buses, however, is that they are limited by the infrastructure. You can only use them on routes where there is a charger at the end of the line - and thus, the infrastructure costs are scaled on the basis of routes, not fleet size (which may or may not be a bad thing). As well, it makes changing routes more complicated, as there may then be a need to commission and decommission charging equipment if a route changes course or is extended.

At least for a test program, a long range bus strikes me as the ideal, as there are no restrictions on the routes that the vehicles can take. Simply mix them in with the regular fleet and see how they do.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[crs1026]

I imagine with time the buses may come with a "virtual rubber hose" capability.... if one bus runs out of charge, the next one plugs in and transfers just enough charge to let the dead bus crawl back to a charger.

I have been told that the distributed rechargers may themselves have battery capability, so that they are storing energy at lowest possible cost (eg off peak grid, or solar, or whatever) rather than charging at peak hydro rates. I wonder what the at-garage chargers do? Presumably overnight charge is at off-peak rates, so this is baked in.

To digress - is anyone offering a "bring you charge" service for stalled e-cars, similar to the CAA's "bring you gas" service? Seems like a good business opportunity with the number of electric cars on the road growing. Five minutes of charge from a battery or diesel generator, to get you off the shoulder of the 401 and to a charging station.

- Paul

 

[innsertnamehere]

The model the TTC is looking to follow is essentially to buy buses with a long enough range to operate it's entire daily service pattern, and charge overnight. They are buying buses with 400km ranges - that is likely more than enough for a typical day of service, given that buses average about 18km/h. 12 hours of service would result in maybe 300km in travel.

Now of course the question is if an electric bus could maintain that range in the winter time when the batteries are far less efficient.

The additional down time of short range buses is also a huge issue - having to sit at the end of the line to get extra charge while the operater is waiting is a waste of man power and potential service capacity. Letting the charge run overnight when the bus isn't in use is far more efficient and requires far less infrastructure.

 

[lenaitch]

To digress - is anyone offering a "bring you charge" service for stalled e-cars, similar to the CAA's "bring you gas" service? Seems like a good business opportunity with the number of electric cars on the road growing. Five minutes of charge from a battery or diesel generator, to get you off the shoulder of the 401 and to a charging station.
- Paul

Interesting concept. I would assume CAA might consider it if they felt there was sufficient demand and the equipment was available. I don't know a whole lot about e-vehicle technology: I assume most or all charge on 120v/220v but I don't know if there is a common charge rate (amp/hours). I do believe one - Tesla perhaps - can accept a very high, and therefore short, charge rate. For a "5 minute" get-off the highway charge, the supply would have to be either a fairly large generator or a high-capacity battery capable of quick discharge. Again, I don't know if current e-vehicles can accept a 'flash charge'.

 

[crs1026]

^ Did a little poking around and found this site.

Taking a Chevy Bolt for example, at low power levels the charge rate is one mile of range every 22 seconds using the standard charger.

Obviously, the charging rate for a bus would be slower, unless a heavy duty cable and a pretty powerful charging source were available in the field. A truck chassis with a power takeoff to a heavy alternator might do the job.

Checked a Tesla owners’ forum and the concept of running out of power seemed to attract ridicule - too many warning messages. But it will happen, especially in cold weather or as batteries wear out, or when defective gear misreads the charge..... not unlike an iphone!

Asked a transit guy, he shrugged and said, nah, we’d just tow it. But for cars, I’d hate to be at the mercy of the tow truck bandits. They do too well already.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

Interesting concept. I would assume CAA might consider it if they felt there was sufficient demand and the equipment was available. I don't know a whole lot about e-vehicle technology: I assume most or all charge on 120v/220v but I don't know if there is a common charge rate (amp/hours). I do believe one - Tesla perhaps - can accept a very high, and therefore short, charge rate. For a "5 minute" get-off the highway charge, the supply would have to be either a fairly large generator or a high-capacity battery capable of quick discharge. Again, I don't know if current e-vehicles can accept a 'flash charge'.

To give a thumb-nail sketch on this, for home recharging, it's given a boost (pun fully intended) to providing not only 240v single phase split rail supply to home garages, (it's now required in new builds) it's sparked (please forgive me) a new interest in 240V supply elsewhere in domestic situations. This is driven (I can't help it) mostly by kitchen appliances (toasters, heavy duty mixers et al) but is also finding a niche with running European appliances from the house supply directly (The xfrmr adaptors are incredibly inefficient, bulky and unnecessarily pricey). The only problem is that synchronous motors run slightly (20%) faster on 60Hz current (but more efficiently).

Electrical Vehicle Charging Systems - EsaSafe
https://www.esasafe.com › Contractors › Contractor Resources

These are to be rated at 40 amps, or the same as most electric stoves, and slightly higher than the 30 amp from most dryer installations.

A lot of equipment runs a lot better on 240v as line loss is geometrically less. Even audio equipment. Anyone with a table saw wired for 240v notices a marked difference in spin-up speed and torque under load.

Normal 120v domestic current branch circuit ratings aren't enough to run a meaningful charger and time to charge. Ironically, as much 'those in high places' see the light (that was unintentional) on heavy 240v supply, 15 and 20 amp 240v outlets are still incredibly unregulated (GFCIs and arc prevention, etc).

That will change.

 

[lenaitch]

To give a thumb-nail sketch on this, for home recharging, it's given a boost (pun fully intended) to providing not only 240v single phase split rail supply to home garages, (it's now required in new builds) it's sparked (please forgive me) a new interest in 240V supply elsewhere in domestic situations. This is driven (I can't help it) mostly by kitchen appliances (toasters, heavy duty mixers et al) but is also finding a niche with running European appliances from the house supply directly (The xfrmr adaptors are incredibly inefficient, bulky and unnecessarily pricey). The only problem is that synchronous motors run slightly (20%) faster on 60Hz current (but more efficiently).

Electrical Vehicle Charging Systems - EsaSafe
https://www.esasafe.com › Contractors › Contractor Resources

These are to be rated at 40 amps, or the same as most electric stoves, and slightly higher than the 30 amp from most dryer installations.

A lot of equipment runs a lot better on 240v as line loss is geometrically less. Even audio equipment. Anyone with a table saw wired for 240v notices a marked difference in spin-up speed and torque under load.

Normal 120v domestic current branch circuit ratings aren't enough to run a meaningful charger and time to charge. Ironically, as much 'those in high places' see the light (that was unintentional) on heavy 240v supply, 15 and 20 amp 240v outlets are still incredibly unregulated (GFCIs and arc prevention, etc).

That will change.

Congrats on the (tortured?)wording of your response. I did not realize that a 240v garage outlet was now a OBC requirement. Is there actually a market for 240v counter top appliances? I've yet to see one. Even with 20a t-slot kitchen outlets, I have yet to see a 20 amp appliance.

Interesting point about under regulated 240v circuits. A 120v garage or exterior outlet needs to be GFI protected. You are correct - as they become more mainstream, that will change, possibly unless they come up with a specific use receptacle configuration that can be used for no other purpose.

 

[lenaitch]

^ Did a little poking around and found this site.

Taking a Chevy Bolt for example, at low power levels the charge rate is one mile of range every 22 seconds using the standard charger.

Obviously, the charging rate for a bus would be slower, unless a heavy duty cable and a pretty powerful charging source were available in the field. A truck chassis with a power takeoff to a heavy alternator might do the job.

Checked a Tesla owners’ forum and the concept of running out of power seemed to attract ridicule - too many warning messages. But it will happen, especially in cold weather or as batteries wear out, or when defective gear misreads the charge..... not unlike an iphone!

Asked a transit guy, he shrugged and said, nah, we’d just tow it. But for cars, I’d hate to be at the mercy of the tow truck bandits. They do too well already.

- Paul

The link wouldn't work for me but that's not bad - I thought it would be longer.
+1 on being at the mercy of chaser tow trucks. Hopefully CAA will rise to the challenge.

 

[steveintoronto]

I did not realize that a 240v garage outlet was now a OBC requirement.

Yeah, I did a double-take when I noted that too in the reg update bulletin. I was looking for something else to do with supplying a friend's front room with 240v (incorrectly referred to as 220 or 230 volt in many references) for his ultra-quality European hi-fi set-up (only the turntable needed a mod, a 60 Cy capstan turret to correct synchronous speed) and as much as code allows for two-wire hot, no neutral (as is done with baseboard heating) I did it with a neutral so as to run a split receptacle 120 v each side on the same circuit. It took a huge amount of digging the regs, but this is permitted in Ontario! You are limited to the amount of receptacles per breaker set (both hot sides must have a ganged twin breaker). And done 20 A. Sharing both 120 v and 240 v receptacles from the same supply *almost* eliminates audio ground loops which would be rampant with separate feeds if various components are fed from each being on a separate feed. (I'm an audio tech)

Is there actually a market for 240v counter top appliances?

Absolutely, serious reno'd kitchens using commercial grade mixers, toasters, kettles, etc. Serious vacuum cleaners as well.
https://www.katom.com/learning-center/5-reasons-avoid-commercial-kitchen-equipment-home.html

I've yet to see one. Even with 20a t-slot kitchen outlets, I have yet to see a 20 amp appliance.

Oh I have, four slice toasters immediately come to mind. There's a reason the codes have stopped requiring split-feed 15 A duplex receptacles for counters. It's now 20 A T mostly for the GCFI which gets complicated and expensive for a split feed, and so only two outlets can be fed per single 20 A GFCI protected and sometimes arc protected outlets, the latter, for a counter top gas stove must be a dedicated outlet. Thinking is going to have to change again on accommodating and better regulating 240v split 20 A feeds. The devil is in the GFCI.

Interesting point about under regulated 240v circuits. A 120v garage or exterior outlet needs to be GFI protected. You are correct - as they become more mainstream, that will change, possibly unless they come up with a specific use receptacle configuration that can be used for no other purpose.

Yeah....as someone from an engineering background, and not electrical, but electronic, I felt very ill at ease with a recent installation that met all the regs, yet to me wasn't properly regulated. The regs are very conflicted. It's as much to do with proprietary political influence as safety. 240 V outlets, even if you try to find them, are not available in any form in Ontario save for totally unprotected. You can do that in the panel, but it's unnecessarily expensive and complicated. That's going to have to change. 20 A @ 240 V is one hell of a jolt.

To tie this all back into this string, I'll find out how well protected the present Ont Codes leave vehicle recharge outlets. To use anything but dumb breakers for stoves and dryers is prohibited. Go figure...

Addendum: Btw! The Act that mandates the inclusion of vehicle recharging panels in residential garages (and drives and carports in some instances) also lays out the rebate program that Doug Ford just cancelled!

Which begs a question: Did they axe the whole Act?

And for readers a little mystified at the amount of power we're talking here: It's enough to run a medium sized commercial welder. Think about that. I'm going to recheck the regs to see what fault protection is mandated...if any.

 

[steveintoronto]

Readers will have to do some searching as will I later to find the nitty gritty on 'smart protection' for these recharger panels/boxes/outlets, but note how the rebate is bound into the Act:

2018 Ontario’s New EVSE Regulations
Because the number of electric vehicles on the roads of Ontario is growing at such a rapid pace it was only a matter of time before the provincial government took steps to address the issue. In their recent building code modifications they seek to facilitate the adoption of EVs by compelling developers, property owners, and businesses alike to equip up to 20% of their parking spaces with electric vehicle charging stations. In addition, the new codes which came into effect on January 1, 2018 state that all remaining spaces must be designed in a way that enables future charging station installations.

The $1,000 EVSE (Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment), Installation Rebate
While the new regulations only cover new construction, the provincial government has sweetened the pot for owners of existing homes by offering a rebate of $1,000 to homeowners who retrofit their garages with EVS equipment. The rebate is designed to cover up to $500 of equipment purchase and installation costs for a potential rebate total of $1,000.

For the most part EV champions across Canada have welcomed these latest developments as long overdue given what we now know about the environmental hazards of fossil fuel dependence. While the latest code revisions and rebate programs seem to be a firm step in the right direction they have generated as many, if not more, questions than they have answers. So below we’ll attempt to provide as many answers as we can regarding these important EV-related developments.

Ontario EV Charging Station Rebate

Ontario Municipal Building Code Regarding Electrical Vehicle Supply Equipment (EVSE)
On January 1, 2018 changes to the Ontario Municipal Building Code regarding electrical vehicle supply equipment (also known as EVSE) came into effect. These changes were made by the Ontario government’s Ministry of Municipal Affairs in response to the fact that the number of EVs on the roads of the province have been growing by leaps and bounds in recent years. Here we’re going to take you through the most commonly asked questions about the new code modifications for both residential and non-residential structures. Although the topic can lend itself to extremely dry recitations of arcane information we’re going to try and keep the language here as clear and concise as possible. Let’s begin with how the new regulations impact residential structures, including detached homes, semi-detached homes, and row houses.
[...]

https://evdirect.ca/ontario-new-evse-regulations/#3

Which again asks questions as to how the *commercial regs* will also be impacted by Dougie's dog biscuits...?

Second Addendum: Having trouble at this time finding out if the above Act is affected or not. It may be that nobody actually knows!

[...]
The province’s Electric and Hydrogen Vehicle Incentive Program (EHVIP) was completely funded by the cap-and-trade program, but the spokesperson for the Ministry of Transportation (MTO) would not confirm its demise despite the Ford government declaring all affiliated programs would go through an “orderly wind-down.”

“As the premier has noted, the cap-and-trade program is ending,” the MTO’s said. “We will work with the government to determine next steps with respect to MTO programs funded from cap-and-trade proceeds.”
[...]

http://driving.ca/auto-news/news/ontarios-new-government-kills-ev-rebates-lowers-gas-prices

How easy is it to drive a Ford to Waterloo? And I don't mean the city in Ontario...

Addendum: Here it is! Under the MTO:

Electric vehicle charging incentive program
Ontario is showing its support for electric vehicles (EVs) by offering up to $1,000 to help you purchase and install charging stations for home or business use. Find out whether you're eligible and how to apply for a rebate.

Eligible participants
If you are the owner of an electric vehicle registered and plated in Ontario, you are eligible for a rebate to support the purchase of a Level 2 charging station. You can plug your car into a regular household outlet by upgrading to a Level 2 (220V, 30amps) station, connected to the same type of plug you need for a dryer or stove, will let you charge your car faster.

• Level 1 - (110 V) AC
• Level 2 - (220 V) AC
• Level 3 - (480 V) DC

[...]

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/vehicles/electric/charging-incentive-program.shtml

And technically, here's my concern a la safety although I've yet to find the technical specs and diagrams:

You can plug your car into a regular household outlet by upgrading to a Level 2 (220V, 30amps) station, connected to the same type of plug you need for a dryer or stove, will let you charge your car faster.

Yikes! For a technician or a trained worker schooled on safety, this could work. But not for Metrosexuals and their more masculine female partners with their 'oh so green' Pious.

What could possibly go wrong? Welding anyone? (With a gasoline power hybrid directly adjacent)

And btw Ministry of Technical Hypocrisy; It *isn't* "110 V, and 220 V". It's 120 and 240, and typically even higher than that with modern supply lines and an average load, but I digress...

Post Script: Found an excellent Hydro Quebec technical sheet on charge stations that will answer many of the questions other posters have had. As to my concerns of safety (and there are extensive concerns and discussions online specific to that) at least the ground fault one is discussed here (and I still have concerns!)

http://www.hydroquebec.com/data/electrification-transport/pdf/technical-guide.pdf

 

[lenaitch]

Readers will have to do some searching as will I later to find the nitty gritty on 'smart protection' for these recharger panels/boxes/outlets, but note how the rebate is bound into the Act:


https://evdirect.ca/ontario-new-evse-regulations/#3

Which again asks questions as to how the *commercial regs* will also be impacted by Dougie's dog biscuits...?

Second Addendum: Having trouble at this time finding out if the above Act is affected or not. It may be that nobody actually knows!

http://driving.ca/auto-news/news/ontarios-new-government-kills-ev-rebates-lowers-gas-prices

How easy is it to drive a Ford to Waterloo? And I don't mean the city in Ontario...

Addendum: Here it is! Under the MTO:

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/vehicles/electric/charging-incentive-program.shtml

And technically, here's my concern a la safety although I've yet to find the technical specs and diagrams:

Yikes! For a technician or a trained worker schooled on safety, this could work. But not for Metrosexuals and their more masculine female partners with their 'oh so green' Pious.

What could possibly go wrong? Welding anyone? (With a gasoline power hybrid directly adjacent)

And btw Ministry of Technical Hypocrisy; It *isn't* "110 V, and 220 V". It's 120 and 240, and typically even higher than that with modern supply lines and an average load, but I digress...

Post Script: Found an excellent Hydro Quebec technical sheet on charge stations that will answer many of the questions other posters have had. As to my concerns of safety (and there are extensive concerns and discussions online specific to that) at least the ground fault one is discussed here (and I still have concerns!)

View attachment 148988
http://www.hydroquebec.com/data/electrification-transport/pdf/technical-guide.pdf

Yes, nothing like fumbling with high-amp connection in the rain.

The Electrical Safety Authority may have the answer to your question. I would think the electrical standards would be independent of other legislation or initiatives. There may be differences between residential and multi residential/commercial. The website has a fairly good FAQ page and they do respond to inquiries (you may have to sign up).

 

[steveintoronto]

Yes, nothing like fumbling with high-amp connection in the rain.

Insurance companies have a number of papers published on this, some very real concerns, even for commercial operations. Reading the details of the dangers for commercial units, let alone Mr and Mrs Priss in their garage, I can appreciate this a lot more:

The future of electric vehicle charging is wireless.


Qualcomm Halo™ Wireless Electric Vehicle Charging (WEVC) is highly efficient, convenient and easy-to-use wireless charging technology for charging Electric Vehicles (EV). Drivers of Halo vehicles simply park and charge without the need for plug-in cables or adaptors. The technology for Halo vehicles has been developed over many years. Working closely with the automotive industry, the technology uses resonant magnetic induction to transfer energy wirelessly, from a ground-based pad to a pad integrated in the vehicle. [...]

https://www.qualcomm.com/solutions/automotive/wevc

I have concerns over this too, but more on unwanted radiated fields (spurious induction) and losses associated with inductive processes. But it will be many times safer.

Luxury EV Makers Ramp Up Wireless Charging Announcements
Wireless charging is an easy sell for the luxury car market: more convenient, more futuristic, more awesome. Autonomous inductive charging simultaneously hearkens back to the luxury of the full service gas station attendant and fulfills the promise of futuristic, clean, autonomous transportation systems.
[...]

https://www.pluglesspower.com/learn/mainstream-electric-cars-are-headed-towards-wireless-charging/

 

[steveintoronto]

Not directly electric buses, but in the same thrust. The UK is now the latest jurisdiction (it's federal there) to mandate new houses have recharging facilities:

Times of London report in tomorrow's news:

New homes will be fitted with electric car chargers
Graeme Paton, Transport Correspondent
July 9 2018, 12:01am, The Times

New homes will have to be built with electric car chargers as part of a plan to ban the sale of new petrol and diesel vehicles, it will be announced today.

Building regulations will be overhauled to require developers to include external chargepoints outside houses, flats and offices. All new streetlights will also be expected to have charging systems to ensure more drivers can power up their car battery by the roadside and the government will invest in trials of “wireless” charging technology.

The measures will be outlined in a “road to zero” strategy that will set out the government’s policy to end the sale of new conventional petrol and diesel cars or vans by 2040.

Air pollution contributes to 40,000 early deaths a year and an estimated £6 billion a year is spent on the wider health impact of toxic roadside fumes.
[...]
Chris Grayling, the transport secretary, will say today that the plan will pave the way “for the biggest overhaul in road transport technology since the development of the Benz patent motorcar 130 years ago”. The government wants electric car drivers to “find it easier to recharge their vehicles than motorists today who have to visit a filling station”. The strategy will commit to “making sure houses being built are electric vehicle ready”. The government will consult on a requirement for charge points to be fitted to new homes “where appropriate”. This usually involves fitting wall-mounted sockets to the outside of buildings.

The strategy will include “future-proofing streets by ensuring all new street lighting columns have charging points in areas with on-street parking” and £400 million will be spent funding companies that produce and install the charge point technology.
[...]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...e-fitted-with-electric-car-chargers-h5393d0hf