TTC Commuter Parking

[mrgrieves]

I'm not sure if there is a thread to cover this specific topic. Many people are opposed to the TTC owning parking lots. I can understand this viewpoint. But many people rely on these lots to get to work or entertainment downtown. Bus services in the inner suburbs, where the car remains king despite relative proximity to downtown, is not very robust. In the absence of the lots many people would forego the TTC altogether and drive to their destination. There will be many changes to the lots as the TTC would like to shut a lot of them down, yet at the same time is opening new lots at the new stations. I was hoping we can avoid a debate about whether the lots makes sense and instead discuss developments related to the lots.

- The existing TTC subway parking lots all seem to be at or near capacity. I'm not sure about Yorkdale, but it comes with a premium price ($7) and I wouldn't want to be anywhere near the shopping mall this time of the year.

- A good chunk of the main Wilson lot is being used as a temporary bus area while upgrades are happening to the actual bus area. This is supposed to be completed end of year.

- A large supply of new parking spots will be coming online with the extension to Vaughan starting next week. What I wonder is how this affects parking at the existing lots. Will commuters from north of the City continue to park at the existing lots, or will they start to use the new lots...

 

[robmausser]

Parking lots on the outer network stations is fine imo. Suburbanites love their cars, you're gonna have a hard time convincing them to take the bus.

I'd rather their cars to the subway station than downtown given the choice.

However, we need to stop building underground subway lines to the middle of nowhere, where there isnt the density to support them.

Thats the role of suburban and intermediate capacity rail.

 

[innsertnamehere]

All of the south lots along the Spadina line are planned to close in the next few years. Sheppard West and Wilson have development plans, and Yorkdale will see it's lease expire and have its parking converted to parking for the mall. York Mill's lot is also scheduled to close, if it hasn't already. Finch will remain, as it is in the Hydro corridor and has no development potential.

I think whether a lot should exist really depends on context. Hydro corridors are great spots to provide it as it increases options for customers and doesn't neuter development potential. Pioneer Village is going to have a 1,000+ spot lot in the hydro corridor, like Finch, and both those stations should keep them.

Stations like Wilson with the extensive surface parking are better off as condos like currently planned. I would prefer the subway lot compared to a strip mall, though.

There is a real utility to parking lots for the subway. It is important to remember however that they provide only limited ridership potential. Finch has nearly 2,000 parking spaces, which even at full capacity, provide less than 4% of it's daily ridership.

Oh, and charge market rates for parking. No need to subsidize the service. See what the market is for it at the price it takes to provide it.

 

[Megaton327]

Yorkdale will see it's lease expire and have its parking converted to parking for the mall.

Really? Yorkdale recently closed the TTC lot for several years during their most recent redevelopment, and it only just reopened a few months ago in their new parking garage. That new garage is absolutely massive, I've never gone to Yorkdale and found a shortage of spaces in that garage...why would they throw away a bunch of parking revenue in order to have more of the lot remain empty? That makes no sense. This way they get parking revenue and people heading to/from the subway might stop at a store or two. Empty parking spaces produce neither of those revenue sources.

 

[steveintoronto]

Credit to @mrgrieves for starting this string. It's a very relevant and topical issue.

Had to Google to ascertain some of the claims of posters.

September 26, 2017 7:27 pm
Updated: September 27, 2017 9:35 am
Toronto to survey use of TTC commuter parking lots facing closure
[...]
Mayor John Tory told the committee he will be voting against the recommendations believing that most license plates in the lots are likely from the 905, and that the city shouldn’t subsidize those users.

“I don’t think we’re in the business of maintaining or building parking lots for people from outside 416.”

In the interim, city staff will execute a survey in October to determine how many of the cars occupying spots on a daily basis are from outside of city boundaries.

https://globalnews.ca/news/3770360/...-of-ttc-commuter-parking-lots-facing-closure/
It's an excellent point. Anyone have the results of that survey?

TTC parking returns to Yorkdale Station, with price hike
by News Staff

Posted Jan 31, 2017 11:32 am EST

Last Updated Feb 1, 2017 at 4:33 pm EST

TTC parking will return to Yorkdale Station on Wednesday, but you’ll have to fork out an extra $2 to use the newly-renovated lot.

The previous $5 fee has been upped to $7.

“The lot … offers more than 1,000 spaces in a covered, heated and well-lit multi-level structure,” the TTC said in a release on Tuesday. “It also features a communication system monitored by mall security and pay-on exit payment system, allowing for quicker entry.”

The 1,010 spots are open to commuters Monday to Friday from 5:30 am to 9:30 am or until the designated lot is full. There is no commuter parking on weekends.

The TTC also noted that the extra 1,000 spaces will provide relief to commuters who have been parking at Downsview and Wilson stations.

In December 2016, the TTC closed Wilson Station’s west lot at a cost of 610 parking spots after the City declared it surplus, allowing Build Toronto to turn it into retail space.

Wilson Station has three remaining lots – for now.

In early 2017 the Wilson Station south lot will close, losing 541 spaces. It’s likely that in the following year the main lot with a capacity of 885 spots, will shut down.

The lack of parking spawned a group of savvy entrepreneurs to form the online community SpaceiShare, which allows residents to rent out their driveways.

Parking lot closures are also imminent at Victoria Park and Warden, while Downsview will remain open for at least another year before shuttering.

But the TTC is confident that with the return of Yorkdale, and other future projects, the parking drought can be alleviated.

“In addition to these (Yorkdale) spaces, commuters will have access to approximately 2,800 new spaces at three TTC lots on the Toronto-York Spadina subway extension by the end of 2017, as well as access to a lot at the Vaughan Metropolitan Centre.”

http://toronto.citynews.ca/2017/01/31/ttc-parking-returns-to-yorkdale-station-with-price-hike/

Charging for parking seems the only rational way of dealing with much/most of this issue. Is it 'right to drive to the subway when a bus can get you there?' Toronto would fare poorly on that compared to many progressive US cities even at this time. Toronto lags badly in supplying quality transit. So to neutralize the argument of 'pro or con'...make parkers pay the cost of doing so.

Addendum: Further Googling with different tags reveals these:
City eyes shutting subway parking lots to drive commuters onto transit
Antonella Artuso

Published: October 4, 2017
http://torontosun.com/2017/10/04/sh...ials/wcm/ab2257a3-4cd2-4bc3-a5c4-7e4abded14f2

45 Comments May 9, 2016 at 10:00 am

cityscape
The TTC’s Subway Parking Lot Crunch Doesn’t Actually Suck
The TTC is selling off more parking lots. But that's a good thing.
https://torontoist.com/2016/05/the-ttcs-subway-parking-lot-crunch-doesnt-actually-suck/

Put parking lot money toward transit, Toronto’s business lobby says

Oliver Moore
URBAN TRANSPORTATION REPORTER
TORONTO
Published September 14, 2016 Updated March 24, 2017

Enough with the parking, build more transit.

That's the crux of a new call from Toronto's business lobby, which is urging the city to put the brakes on building new public parking lots and direct that money into transit projects instead.

In a report due out Thursday morning, the Toronto Region Board of Trade makes the case for diverting about $30-million a year from the parking authority. The report argues that that amount, coupled with asset sales and more aggressive development of city lands, could be used to finance about $1-billion in new transit.


"I want to emphasize, [this] is cash that they're holding," said Brian Kelcey, the consultant who co-wrote the board report.

"In other words, if we stop using it for the purpose of parking expansion, and redirect all of that cash to public transit, that doesn't hurt anybody's budget … there's no point in the city's operating budget that's depending on that money."


Toronto has a backlog of transportation infrastructure adding up to billions of dollars and is grappling at the same time with how to fund the next generation of transit. Mayor John Tory has said he would support some new source of revenue and has discussed the possibility of a hotel tax with Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne.

A report on revenue-generating options is expected to come back to council this fall. Among the possibilities is a parking tax, which is very unpopular with many businesses. The board of trade proposal offers the prospect of wringing more money out of parking, without a levy that will hit malls and commercial buildings. [...]

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...torontos-business-lobby-says/article31890340/

And here's my point about Toronto and drivers:
"In a briefing, Mr. Kelcey noted that Toronto already has the continent's largest supply of publicly owned off-street parking."

Torontonians love to think they are "World Class". Their habits indicate otherwise.

 

[mrgrieves]

All of the south lots along the Spadina line are planned to close in the next few years. Sheppard West and Wilson have development plans, and Yorkdale will see it's lease expire and have its parking converted to parking for the mall. York Mill's lot is also scheduled to close, if it hasn't already. Finch will remain, as it is in the Hydro corridor and has no development potential.

Wilson has two lots still running, is it the main lot or the smaller south lot that has a development plan tied to it?

The Wilson lot is full every day, will be interesting to see what happens starting next week when the new stations open. Mayor Tory has said in effect the lots are used by 905ers at Toronto's expense. if that's the case then the new lots should be well used and Wilson and Shep West should be much quieter

 

[innsertnamehere]

Both are, but the south lot is more immediate. Development applications have been filed for the south lot, while the north lot is still in Build Toronto's hands to form a development concept and find a buyer.

 

[Megaton327]

Mayor Tory has said in effect the lots are used by 905ers at Toronto's expense.

That's absurd. Last time I checked, Toronto charges for parking at those stations--the TTC will even be the sole recipient of parking revenue from Pioneer Village and 407 despite being in York Region.

And would Mayor Tory prefer those thousands of cars all drive downtown every day? Good grief...

 

[sixrings]

I thought lrt was supposed to help get people to the subway and or go station. Just be honest it is equally as much that suburban people hate busses as much as it is about their love for cars. If they hated transit altogether then they wouldn't need parking spots.

 

[Streety McCarface]

I would think the biggest incentive for suburbanites in York Region to drive to the subway is the fact that their buses are so expensive. It's in effect cheaper to drive and park at a subway station than it is to pay $4-5.50 to ride a YRT bus fare each way. Fare integration is what will drive people to actually take the bus to the subway. Believe it or not, suburban stations in Toronto are used far more than most downtown/midtown stations, and this is because people take the bus to the station. Toronto should absolutely build higher order transit into the suburbs, but only in areas where adequate bus/LRT/Streetcar connections exist. (Also note, I'm not advocating solely for subway in only the Suburbs, the DRL to Sheppard should be the priority, I'm just trying to argue against the sentiment that Subways in the suburbs are bad and that aboveground subways are also bad).

 

[W. K. Lis]

2,900 parking spaces are planned for the Line 1 extension. 2,900 time 1.3 people per motor vehicle gives you 3,770 possible passengers. With trains carrying at capacity 1,594 passengers (see link), 3 (math-wise 2.36) trains would carry them all. With a train about every 5 minutes, they'll move them all in 15 minutes.

That's why transit agencies are changing to have buses, light rail, and commuter trains service the suburban stations. Having commuter parking lots is just a waste of real estate.

 

[Megaton327]

2,900 parking spaces are planned for the Line 1 extension. 2,900 time 1.3 people per motor vehicle gives you 3,770 possible passengers. With trains carrying at capacity 1,594 passengers (see link), 3 (math-wise 2.36) trains would carry them all. With a train about every 5 minutes, they'll move them all in 15 minutes.

That's why transit agencies are changing to have buses, light rail, and commuter trains service the suburban stations. Having commuter parking lots is just a waste of real estate.

The majority of those 2900 cars would be driving downtown, not taking buses to the subway.

 

[Leo_Chan]

2,900 parking spaces are planned for the Line 1 extension. 2,900 time 1.3 people per motor vehicle gives you 3,770 possible passengers. With trains carrying at capacity 1,594 passengers (see link), 3 (math-wise 2.36) trains would carry them all. With a train about every 5 minutes, they'll move them all in 15 minutes.

That's why transit agencies are changing to have buses, light rail, and commuter trains service the suburban stations. Having commuter parking lots is just a waste of real estate.

Most of these parking spaces are in hydro corridors or too close to highways, so there's not that much land for development anyways.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Plus 5+ minutes to find an empty parking slot. Maybe 3+ minutes to get out.

 

[sixrings]

The threat of these cars all driving downtown if there is no commuter lots is a bit much. Sure some cars would but just as much would take transit to the subway. People don't drive downtown for various reasons; traffic, parking prices, fear of hitting bicyclists. All these things would still exist and some like parking prices, traffic would be worse