Transportfan
Senior Member
The major problem with extending the subway to Square One is that MCC was built in a terrible spot for a subway extension. Burnhamthorpe was the worst east-west street to built it along.
|
|
|
Rainforest
Senior Member
I understand that. However in some cases, the configuration of the street network is a bit of a problem, rather than the overall service level.
YRT would have to get somewhat creative to supply both the Clark and Royal Orchard stations with two 10M routes each. The 16th and Major Mack routes would connect to RHC, and so would Hwy 7 East. For the 14th/John route, the closest subway station is at Steeles rather than Clark.
Perhaps Clark Stn could do with some combination of Bus #77 (Hwy 7 West), improved Bus #5 Clark, and a branch of VIVA running via Clark. That still leaves Royal Orchard Stn, not sure how they could get 2 useful 10M routes connecting there, unless they deliberately split Bus #3 info two separate routes.
Northern Light
Superstar
Don't get too hung up on the numbers I used, I think they represent the right idea, the right principle, but there is always room to consider exceptions, providing one can show that the passenger volume overall will support a given station/project.
That said, what I was really aiming at was the assumption that with more distant stops (1.5-2km) that there would local bus service over the top, and it should be frequent, and a single cross street for each station the same. If the latter isn't possible, that does merit scrutiny.
On roads, I would add, I'm a bit proponent of getting the grid of arterials throughout the GTA to at least 1km spacing, both E-W and N-S.
Of course, this will take decades to achieve, there would meritorious excepts where we don't want to damage a valley area by putting a 500M bridge across it; and some other roads would simply be low priority.
But York Region does need a more dense grid. The object, to my mind isn't more room for cars, but better room for all modes, limiting arterials to 4 travel lanes, (2 per direction, at most), plus cycle tracks. And to permit a more dense grid of transit as well.
ericmacm
Active Member
I figured some visual representation would help out with this discussion regarding Line 2. Generally speaking, I have always been supportive of a Line 2 extension into MCC. However, when you see every potential project in the region laid out on a map of Mississauga with all the ones currently in development, it is really easy to see why this extension will not happen in the near future, in favour of multiple other projects.
In this map, GO Transit and Rail-Based transit has been given solid lines, whereas BRT has been given dashed lines. The relevant lines shown in the map:
The key issue with a Line 2 extension to MCC is the amount of redundancy that is currently planned or already exists in the corridor - the planned Dundas BRT, and Milton GO (which will be even more capable with 2WAD service in the future). While an extension with two stops at just The East Mall and Sherway would not suffer as much from this redundancy, it is easy to see that both stops would not generate enough ridership - something that has already been mentioned and referenced multiple times in this thread already. While Sherway Gardens has plans to densify significantly, along with increased development at Trillium Health Partners, there would also have to be a major effort to keep the momentum going and redevelop a large section of the area between Kipling and Sherway with serious density. It would likely not be worth the cost of construction for just a small two-stop extension. Continuing past Sherway, densities do improve slightly, but they are already serviced by Milton GO and will also be serviced by the Dundas BRT. Once you reach Cooksville GO, it continues to get complicated. The original alignment to MCC was planned to run under Hurontario, but that obviously won't work anymore. It could run further east under a street like Confederation Parkway, but again, there would be a major density issue and there would have to be a major push to extend the footprint of MCC south to Cooksville through that low-density neighbourhood.
Simply put - to justify the construction costs, there would have to be major, fundamental changes in density along the entirety of the corridor to generate enough ridership to need another line in addition to the Dundas BRT and Milton GO. While it is most certainly possible (and these commercial/industrial areas will likely be redeveloped in the future anyway), it would be very difficult to do in a short period of time. Planning and construction efforts are likely better spent on lines and extensions in areas that don't have redundancies already. The best time to build this extension would have been 30+ years ago, before the Hurontario LRT, and before construction costs exploded.
I would consider it much more likely that we see Line 5 servicing MCC decades before Line 2. After the Eglinton West extension to Renforth is complete, converting the 403 Transitway into LRT would be significantly easier in comparison to extending Line 2. A grade-separated ROW already exists all the way to Hurontario, stations already exist, it is the only E-W transit line in the area, and there is good potential for increased development in much of the corridor. There will also be greater ridership potential with the planned connection to Pearson as well. The only part of this hypothetical extension which would require tunneling or cut/cover excavation would be the section between Hurontario and Square One, which is already planned anyway as a part of the Mississauga Transitway expansion to bring a dedicated underground tunnel, new terminal, and new ROW alignment to connect the eastern and western sections of the 403 Transitway on a single ROW.
In this map, GO Transit and Rail-Based transit has been given solid lines, whereas BRT has been given dashed lines. The relevant lines shown in the map:
- Line ? Hazel McCallion (with potential MCC loop and Brampton extension)
- Line 2 Bloor-Danforth (with potential extension to MCC)
- Line 5 Eglinton (with potential extension to MCC along 403 Transitway)
- Dundas BRT
- Queen Street BRT (with potential Mississauga Road extension to connect with Highway 407 Transitway)
- Highway 403 Transitway (with potential new alignment in Hydro ROW, currently in early planning)
- Highway 407 Transitway (currently in early planning stages, with proposed spurs to various locations)
- Highway 427 Transitway (currently in early planning stages)
The key issue with a Line 2 extension to MCC is the amount of redundancy that is currently planned or already exists in the corridor - the planned Dundas BRT, and Milton GO (which will be even more capable with 2WAD service in the future). While an extension with two stops at just The East Mall and Sherway would not suffer as much from this redundancy, it is easy to see that both stops would not generate enough ridership - something that has already been mentioned and referenced multiple times in this thread already. While Sherway Gardens has plans to densify significantly, along with increased development at Trillium Health Partners, there would also have to be a major effort to keep the momentum going and redevelop a large section of the area between Kipling and Sherway with serious density. It would likely not be worth the cost of construction for just a small two-stop extension. Continuing past Sherway, densities do improve slightly, but they are already serviced by Milton GO and will also be serviced by the Dundas BRT. Once you reach Cooksville GO, it continues to get complicated. The original alignment to MCC was planned to run under Hurontario, but that obviously won't work anymore. It could run further east under a street like Confederation Parkway, but again, there would be a major density issue and there would have to be a major push to extend the footprint of MCC south to Cooksville through that low-density neighbourhood.
Simply put - to justify the construction costs, there would have to be major, fundamental changes in density along the entirety of the corridor to generate enough ridership to need another line in addition to the Dundas BRT and Milton GO. While it is most certainly possible (and these commercial/industrial areas will likely be redeveloped in the future anyway), it would be very difficult to do in a short period of time. Planning and construction efforts are likely better spent on lines and extensions in areas that don't have redundancies already. The best time to build this extension would have been 30+ years ago, before the Hurontario LRT, and before construction costs exploded.
I would consider it much more likely that we see Line 5 servicing MCC decades before Line 2. After the Eglinton West extension to Renforth is complete, converting the 403 Transitway into LRT would be significantly easier in comparison to extending Line 2. A grade-separated ROW already exists all the way to Hurontario, stations already exist, it is the only E-W transit line in the area, and there is good potential for increased development in much of the corridor. There will also be greater ridership potential with the planned connection to Pearson as well. The only part of this hypothetical extension which would require tunneling or cut/cover excavation would be the section between Hurontario and Square One, which is already planned anyway as a part of the Mississauga Transitway expansion to bring a dedicated underground tunnel, new terminal, and new ROW alignment to connect the eastern and western sections of the 403 Transitway on a single ROW.
Last edited:
robmausser
Senior Member
Well put. But I think the province needs to get serious about pushing CP for hourly all day both way GO trains on the Milton Line, even if that means paying for a 3rd/4th track. It would more than certainly cost less than a subway extension. Combine that with fare discounts with taking MiWay, GO and TTC, and it would be a much faster ride into Toronto than taking the subway.
One of the "pluses" pushed by people for a subway extension is a single $3.25 fare, but with PRESTO gates the TTC and MX can change the system to be fare by distance/zone. I think the days of the one fare for the TTC subway are numbered as it pushes out of the Toronto city proper.
sixrings
Senior Member
Thank you for advocating for all day GO service but once an hour. Damn that’s rough times for the most dense area of the sixth biggest city in Canada.
robmausser
Senior Member
I just dont see any higher being feasible on CP's mainline even with a 3rd track. Once an hour is a minimum, there would be more trains in the morning and evening on peak, considering there already is.
sixrings
Senior Member
I respect that you are saying that you can’t see how more service is feasible. But it’s not either of our jobs to figure out how this is going to work. But again I would think that the Milton line (one of GOs busiest lines) needs more than once an hour if the other lines needs trains once every ten minutes. And if they can’t figure that out then perhaps just a two stop subway (dixie, square one) is what actually makes sense.
T3G
Senior Member
I don't like the idea of the two stop subway as an alternative to the Milton line. It is a gross abdication of Metrolinx's duty to the residents of Milton and west of Square One, who will receive zero benefit from that extension. I fear the building of such a line would be used to throttle further criticism of the service offered on the Milton line. "You already have a subway, why are you demanding more?"
NB: This does not mean I support dragging line 2 all the way to Milton GO.
NB: This does not mean I support dragging line 2 all the way to Milton GO.
sixrings
Senior Member
Well just because a line got to STC doesnt mean its going to get to Pickering Town Centre and a line does need to stop somewhere. I am just suggesting that Square one is similar distance to Yonge from the west as STC is from the east so a line there shouldnt be that crazy (again Vaughan has a stop and Richmond hill is getting a stop)
I wrestle with which one I prefer but I would be thrilled for a Milton branch to Square One with some sort of reasonable service. But once a hour service is laughable in comparison to the rest of the network and it sure seems like since no one has a CHEAP answer the answer on here is becoming, LRT to Port Credit or accept a bus to a transfer at Kipling to a transfer at St George.
afransen
Senior Member
If it is absolutely impossible to add frequent surface rail in the GO corridor for less than $10B, then I would support a subway extension. But for that matter, I expect it would be possible to build an elevated guideway in the corridor that allows CP access to both sides of their corridor, and it ought to still be cheaper than a crazy extension of Line 2.
drum118
Superstar
To do the Milton Line corridor to 4 tracks from Weston Sub to Milton is only $2.5B with centre platforms for GO alone with some existing side platforms. This include electrifying the line.
What chance do you think CP will allow an overhead system if they currently opposed electrifying the line in their corridor???
To built an bypass line for MCC would be close to $5B, as it will have to be tunnel 100%, The bypass would services both Toronto and Milton
To take thing even further, you could upgrade the CP Corridor from Milton to London for 3 tracks with no electrifying of the line. and haven't even look at the cost to do at this time. Could use the OLD CP station giving riders an option of which station and line they could use to meet their travel needs. Only need an 4-6 pack train for service.
To do 15-30 minute service only requires an DMU train.
sixrings
Senior Member
So why isn’t this happening?
crs1026
Senior Member
Because it significantly enlarges the cost of GO Expansion and skews the amounts spent in each of Peel, Halton, Vaughan, Markham, and Durham, posssibly creating haves and have nots
.Probably influences the “average distance from home to GO RER station” metrics in a weird way, especially since it would reduce the catchment to LSW. Possibly has less peak period upside in its projection given that peak ridership is already so high.
It’s harder to link its ridership to taking cars off a specific 400 series highway than with the lines being given first priority.
The premise of GO Expansion is the creation of a GTA wide network If Milton were being built now, those other lines would be underfed and would be progressing more slowly. Or, from another angle ,it would mean deferring one of the existing signature subway/LRT projects. (Yeah, I know, Eglinton West extension as an LRT would have delivered enough saved to half fund Milton, but that’s Doug’s doing).
Milton is a good Phase 2 project, but it’s infill to the core network. Its time will come, but getting GO RER established is a higher priority. I’m not arguing against it, I’m just saying - fer gosh sakes, be patient.
- Paul
Last edited:
sixrings
Senior Member
A big reason the Transit City plan died was because of deferred spending. At some point if you don’t build something then you bump into other issues. For instance every year we push this down the road the cost of land assembly goes up. The cost of construction goes up. Things can be cancelled. New governments get in charge. That sort of thing. If there’s a sane plan I don’t see why things need to be pushed so far down the line that is here begins to be a real chance we either never see it or it never materializes.