News   Jun 19, 2024
 418     0 
News   Jun 19, 2024
 2.2K     3 
News   Jun 19, 2024
 554     0 

TTC: Bloor Danforth Line 2 West Extension(s)

I am specifically referring to an LRT to Sherway, which doesn't make any sense considering it would be a line that is only 3.5 km. I don't think it makes any sense to force an interchange and do all that construction for a subway that can be constructed without tunneling it for such a short distance. In that area, a relatively cheap subway extension makes sense. An LRT makes no sense at all for such a tiny distance, especially considering a subway extension would be relatively cheap and also considering that buses can serve that particular area well enough.

As for LRTs in general, I'd be fine with that, but the problem is Toronto doesn't build them the way they should. We have stop distances literally less than 150 metres apart from Warden to Hakimi Lebovic. There is very limited to no signal priority on Eglinton. We've made them very similar to Spadina and St. Clair. The Finch LRT has close stop spacing as well and I doubt they will put signal priority on it. We could have achieved something similar by just doing a BRT on Finch. I'm actually all for BRTs. I want to dramatically expand RapidTO as well. It's the way we do LRTs is what really gets under my skin. So my philosophy is this, if we *know* that Toronto doesn't build LRTs with appropriate stop distances and signal priority, then why bother building them to begin with. Just stick to the lower cost BRTs and expand RapidTO, and also extend current subway lines where appropriate.
Imagine building a storage facility + serving for what, 5 or 6 vehicles?
 
Imagine building a storage facility + serving for what, 5 or 6 vehicles?

You just described the TTC Vincent Yard...

vincent-yard.jpg
From link.
 
Why are people even suggesting tunnelling? The ROW exists; anything in the way is parking lots for industrial uses. Go elevated if need be, trenched if absolutely necessary.The reserved ROW to Sherway makes more sense than Milton as a connection point because of its proximity and low cost to deliver. One could probably chalk up the inaction on this to a lack of demand or need right now.

Imo Sherway could be a transit hub in its own right, the connections to it right now simply don’t exist and precede other plans. If any rapid transit is built on the Queensway (LRT or OL extension- I personally like the idea of the latter) or in Southern Etobicoke elsewhere, it would be less circuitous to head to Sherway than Kipling.

Also, sending Line 2 southward to Long Branch is beneficial for connectivity but I can’t see it being worth the cost. With or without going to Sherway, this is an area where expanding the streetcar/LRT network more liberally could help close finicky gaps in our network, because one straight line cant fix everything. Even in official plans there is no good connectivity between Kipling (Line 2/Milton) LSW and the WWLRT, nevermind wherever OL West will go.
 
Has there been any design or concept showing how trains might get from Kipling station to Obico yard?

If they want to connect to the Kipling tail tracks, they would have to descend below the CPR line, and maybe further depending on how they plan to push through 101 Subway Crescent for the future mainline (assuming that they even want to -- apparently this building is a huge obstacle.)

It doesn't look like there's a lot of room for the grade change and turnouts if the yard leads point east but if they point west (downline of a future extension) they pretty much have as much room as they want.

Looks like there's enough room to jog the CPR line south to allow the TTC tracks to go around 101 Subway Cres instead of through, though.
 
Why are people even suggesting tunnelling? The ROW exists; anything in the way is parking lots for industrial uses. Go elevated if need be, trenched if absolutely necessary.The reserved ROW to Sherway makes more sense than Milton as a connection point because of its proximity and low cost to deliver. One could probably chalk up the inaction on this to a lack of demand or need right now.

Imo Sherway could be a transit hub in its own right, the connections to it right now simply don’t exist and precede other plans. If any rapid transit is built on the Queensway (LRT or OL extension- I personally like the idea of the latter) or in Southern Etobicoke elsewhere, it would be less circuitous to head to Sherway than Kipling.

Also, sending Line 2 southward to Long Branch is beneficial for connectivity but I can’t see it being worth the cost. With or without going to Sherway, this is an area where expanding the streetcar/LRT network more liberally could help close finicky gaps in our network, because one straight line cant fix everything. Even in official plans there is no good connectivity between Kipling (Line 2/Milton) LSW and the WWLRT, nevermind wherever OL West will go.
Really, there is nothing in the way??? What do you call that tower at the west end of the trail tracks as well what going to be built next to the Corridor beyond that tower and how do you get around them?

You know TTC cannot build in CP corridor nor will be allow to have an elevated line in it? You know also, CP hasn't sold the corridor to Metrolinx nor plan on doing so.

You do know that there isn't a business case for the line from Cloverdale to Sherway, other than politics. The idea of the line going to Dixie was based on CP allowing TTC to do so that die in 2006 when Metrolinx was formed as well never having a leg to stand on in the first place.

With TTC planning on built a new yard complex to replace Greenwood on the south of CP corridor and Hydro Ontario Lands, that the extension to it from Kipling will have to be by a tunnel.

A subway station at Cloverdale solves all TTC problems at Kipling as well for all the transit systems using Kipling today. It does add another GO station to the line, but no big deal as there should be a few more in Toronto for that line.

The Cloverdale station saves everyone time and money. It eliminates all the deadheading to/from Kipling for all transit system to the point a bus or 2 can be remove per route to adding more service at the same cost today. For riders, it gets them to/from where they want to go to in the first place a lot faster. Land is already sit a side for a subway station as well a transit hub.

An LRT is the best option for the Queensway, but both TTC and the City keep shooting it down. Same for Kipling itself.

Based on ridership and future development on Dundas in Mississauga, and LRT is all you are going to need starting with an BRT. An LRT will only work from Kipling if it is underground as Hydro Ontario doesn't want it under their wires.

Having 2way/all day on the Milton Line will have an impact how people will use transit with good quality of service as well go hand in hand with subway as both service different markets though they may run side by side for a short distance.

Because Etobicoke is low density, the best you will see for it is buses and LRT.

There is no business case for Line 2 to go south to Long Branch. Browns Line is a line between 2 cities that low density on both sides of the city line as well on the Lake Shore as well.

If one looks at Frankfurt Metro System, it more an LRT system than a subway. We watch Line 4 & 7 that ends on the surface at a transit hub for sometime and ridership was low as well for the first few stations before going underground. There is a huge major shopping mall only 2 blocks away. Service is every 10 minutes for each line.
 
The Obico yard (the old CPR rail yard) has space for heavy rail subway trains, buses, AND streetcars.

map_obico_yd1971.jpg
From link.
1668741838947.png
From link.
Note the current Queensway bus garage in the lower right corner of the above image.

They may have to convert the 44 Kipling South bus to streetcar operation, and connect with Lake Shore Blvd. W. and the 501 streetcar and a possible Queensway streetcar right-of-way. They could convert the unused LRT platform at Kipling Station to be used for streetcars. Maybe double-ended streetcars? Else they'll have to add a loop and return track to Kipling Avenue.

20120623-Kipling-Diagram.jpg
From link.
 
Last edited:
Why are people even suggesting tunnelling? The ROW exists; anything in the way is parking lots for industrial uses. Go elevated if need be, trenched if absolutely necessary.The reserved ROW to Sherway makes more sense than Milton as a connection point because of its proximity and low cost to deliver. One could probably chalk up the inaction on this to a lack of demand or need right now.

Imo Sherway could be a transit hub in its own right, the connections to it right now simply don’t exist and precede other plans. If any rapid transit is built on the Queensway (LRT or OL extension- I personally like the idea of the latter) or in Southern Etobicoke elsewhere, it would be less circuitous to head to Sherway than Kipling.

Also, sending Line 2 southward to Long Branch is beneficial for connectivity but I can’t see it being worth the cost. With or without going to Sherway, this is an area where expanding the streetcar/LRT network more liberally could help close finicky gaps in our network, because one straight line cant fix everything. Even in official plans there is no good connectivity between Kipling (Line 2/Milton) LSW and the WWLRT, nevermind wherever OL West will go.
Why would Sherway be a transit hub--Kipling is already well established as such, is nearby, and has connection to GO.
 
Why would Sherway be a transit hub--Kipling is already well established as such, is nearby, and has connection to GO.
Better off extending to Long Branch and develop that area. It'll be a good sell with a reliable connection with Sherway and a developed Etobicoke core at Kipling. The only thing they have to do is turn that 6 point intersection into a "North York Centre".

Line 2 could extend furth along the lake to Port Credit but GO RER could fill in that gap for much cheaper. Although the developing Lakeview Village would gain a massive boost with a subway station.
 
Really, there is nothing in the way??? What do you call that tower at the west end of the trail tracks as well what going to be built next to the Corridor beyond that tower and how do you get around them?

You know TTC cannot build in CP corridor nor will be allow to have an elevated line in it? You know also, CP hasn't sold the corridor to Metrolinx nor plan on doing so.

You do know that there isn't a business case for the line from Cloverdale to Sherway, other than politics. The idea of the line going to Dixie was based on CP allowing TTC to do so that die in 2006 when Metrolinx was formed as well never having a leg to stand on in the first place.

With TTC planning on built a new yard complex to replace Greenwood on the south of CP corridor and Hydro Ontario Lands, that the extension to it from Kipling will have to be by a tunnel.

A subway station at Cloverdale solves all TTC problems at Kipling as well for all the transit systems using Kipling today. It does add another GO station to the line, but no big deal as there should be a few more in Toronto for that line.

The Cloverdale station saves everyone time and money. It eliminates all the deadheading to/from Kipling for all transit system to the point a bus or 2 can be remove per route to adding more service at the same cost today. For riders, it gets them to/from where they want to go to in the first place a lot faster. Land is already sit a side for a subway station as well a transit hub.

An LRT is the best option for the Queensway, but both TTC and the City keep shooting it down. Same for Kipling itself.

Based on ridership and future development on Dundas in Mississauga, and LRT is all you are going to need starting with an BRT. An LRT will only work from Kipling if it is underground as Hydro Ontario doesn't want it under their wires.

Having 2way/all day on the Milton Line will have an impact how people will use transit with good quality of service as well go hand in hand with subway as both service different markets though they may run side by side for a short distance.

Because Etobicoke is low density, the best you will see for it is buses and LRT.

There is no business case for Line 2 to go south to Long Branch. Browns Line is a line between 2 cities that low density on both sides of the city line as well on the Lake Shore as well.

If one looks at Frankfurt Metro System, it more an LRT system than a subway. We watch Line 4 & 7 that ends on the surface at a transit hub for sometime and ridership was low as well for the first few stations before going underground. There is a huge major shopping mall only 2 blocks away. Service is every 10 minutes for each line.
You are right, building a subway traditionally to Sherway would not be worth the cost. The primary point I am trying to convey is that burying a Line 2 extension West should not be considered except perhaps at the mall terminus- take your pick of which. Note firstly though that I don't see a huge functional difference between Sherway, Cloverdale, etc- these are primarily suburban mall trip generators, each with their own connectivity merits. Cloverdale as you mentioned could relieve some buses at Kipling, and that is a point in its favor. You could stop there, but my premise revolves around the cost-effective options for extending in this area- going all the way to Sherway should be doable in the CP corridor and/or hydro corridor with minimal grade separations.

I should clarify some of my assumptions. I am aware they cannot build in the CP corridor to a significant degree, but the existing Line 2 does exactly this, and there are constant ruminations of adding trackage for GO in some far-off AD2W Milton line. Thus I cannot foresee it being a problem for another few kms before it splits off towards Sherway. Also, I assumed the hydro corridor was originally reserved for Line 2 many moons ago. Whether or not that is the case now with Hydro One there, it is not an impossible task to bury the hydro lines for the short section to Sherway if need be. Every time burying hydro lines is discussed, it is usually about the big hydro corridors like Finch that are significantly larger and important to the overall system (feel free to correct me here, but this is obviously a smaller segment). Ie, the cost of burying those is high, but a smaller segment like this should be more palatable. The headache of working with these other stakeholders should be worth it, especially as opposed to the alternative, which is obviously going to be a bored tunnel. Really it could be built cut-and-cover to Cloverdale, Sherway or even Long Branch, but that is not the Toronto way.

Now, my point of a Sherway extension hinges upon any form of Queensway RT. This should help remind us that this is effectively fantasy talk. In regards to Long Branch, this is a discussion directly concerning connecting different transit lines in southern Etobicoke and has little to do with how transit supportive the community is (which it is very, given its prewar density). I precisely said that is not worth the cost, only that it offers connectivity benefits. That connectivity would be better served by LRT, or as you mentioned, BRT- hence my point that LRTs would be better for closing the n/s gaps in Southern Etobicoke. I will reiterate that any connection would primarily serve the network benefits of connecting Kipling, Lakeshore W, and the WWLRT even if the population present doesn't merit it. This is Toronto for crying out loud- strong connectivity is the entire reason we have suburban subways.

Oh, and maybe it's just me, but I do try to keep in mind that there is going to eventually be some kind of 427-Pearson link to Kipling. Somehow, the Ontario Line will close this gap (I would be shocked if it didn't). Any buildout of this should contemplate extending Line 2 if Sherway or Cloverdale if they present themselves as a better transfer point on a cost basis or otherwise.
 
Sherway the mall, and the entire North Queen big box area is already going through the planning process of becoming a high rise community in the next decade or so. Long branch already has medium to low density (and there aren't many plans for higher densities here) - the densities at Sherway will far exceed Long Branch by ratios of probably 50 to 1 or more when all those condos get built.

Re: Kipling being a hub, yes that will continue to be a hub for travellers from Brampton, Malton, North Mississauga (and suburbs northwest of the city). Sherway wouldn't take away from that, it would serve more of the south Mississauga/Oakville/Burlington communities.
 
Sherway the mall, and the entire North Queen big box area is already going through the planning process of becoming a high rise community in the next decade or so. Long branch already has medium to low density (and there aren't many plans for higher densities here) - the densities at Sherway will far exceed Long Branch by ratios of probably 50 to 1 or more when all those condos get built.

Re: Kipling being a hub, yes that will continue to be a hub for travellers from Brampton, Malton, North Mississauga (and suburbs northwest of the city). Sherway wouldn't take away from that, it would serve more of the south Mississauga/Oakville/Burlington communities.
Wouldn't a better hub for those communities be Long Branch? I could perhaps see some value in terminating Line 2 at Lakeshore West to increase connectivity, most likely at Long Branch. Would also be a logical terminus for whatever 427/Pearson Ontario Line link is being dreamed up by the Ford govt, in addition to the in-development Lakeshore BRT.
 
@drum118 has the essential point in his post.

The case for extending to Cloverdale is strong even without that mall's redevelopment, because of the operational value of extending service to East Mall.

That the mall there will also be redeveloped offers additional value, obviously.

The case for going further, in the short-term at least, is much weaker.

That's not to say there may not be a case in the future for Sherway or Dixie or some other endpoint. Rather, its to suggest in a world of finite dollars, what we should be doing is going ahead with the extension to Cloverdale, integrating the new station w/the redevelopment there, and then designing that terminal/tail track to leave open the option of which direction the line may go in the future.

We should hold back subway-level development at Sherway unless we're sure that's where the subway will go; and we figure out what other employment land in that area we will sacrifice. to achieve that.

There is a case for a subway to Sherway if the land-use planning supports it; but we're not there just yet. So lets build where there's a strong case, here and elsewhere, and limit development where we neither can, nor will commit to construction in the near-to-medium term horizon.
 
Last edited:
Really, there is nothing in the way??? What do you call that tower at the west end of the trail tracks as well what going to be built next to the Corridor beyond that tower and how do you get around them?

You know TTC cannot build in CP corridor nor will be allow to have an elevated line in it? You know also, CP hasn't sold the corridor to Metrolinx nor plan on doing so.

You do know that there isn't a business case for the line from Cloverdale to Sherway, other than politics. The idea of the line going to Dixie was based on CP allowing TTC to do so that die in 2006 when Metrolinx was formed as well never having a leg to stand on in the first place.

With TTC planning on built a new yard complex to replace Greenwood on the south of CP corridor and Hydro Ontario Lands, that the extension to it from Kipling will have to be by a tunnel.

A subway station at Cloverdale solves all TTC problems at Kipling as well for all the transit systems using Kipling today. It does add another GO station to the line, but no big deal as there should be a few more in Toronto for that line.

The Cloverdale station saves everyone time and money. It eliminates all the deadheading to/from Kipling for all transit system to the point a bus or 2 can be remove per route to adding more service at the same cost today. For riders, it gets them to/from where they want to go to in the first place a lot faster. Land is already sit a side for a subway station as well a transit hub.

An LRT is the best option for the Queensway, but both TTC and the City keep shooting it down. Same for Kipling itself.

Based on ridership and future development on Dundas in Mississauga, and LRT is all you are going to need starting with an BRT. An LRT will only work from Kipling if it is underground as Hydro Ontario doesn't want it under their wires.

Having 2way/all day on the Milton Line will have an impact how people will use transit with good quality of service as well go hand in hand with subway as both service different markets though they may run side by side for a short distance.

Because Etobicoke is low density, the best you will see for it is buses and LRT.

There is no business case for Line 2 to go south to Long Branch. Browns Line is a line between 2 cities that low density on both sides of the city line as well on the Lake Shore as well.

If one looks at Frankfurt Metro System, it more an LRT system than a subway. We watch Line 4 & 7 that ends on the surface at a transit hub for sometime and ridership was low as well for the first few stations before going underground. There is a huge major shopping mall only 2 blocks away. Service is every 10 minutes for each line.
I have to disagree with your statement about the tower to the west of the tail track. The ROW is still there and is even in the drawings for Pinnacle Etobicoke. If you stand at the end of the tail track or on the new GO bridge you can visually see the ROW and the tower is not in the way.
 

Back
Top