TTC: Bloor Danforth Line 2 West Extension(s)

[crs1026]

This is a hard disagree for me. Mississauga desperately needs better regional transit access. Milton Line upgrade to frequent service, preferably with direct service to MCC, or replacement of Milton with a line that can accomplish that task, has to be one of the higher priority transit projects in the GTA. The gap is going to become glaring as GO expansion dramatically ramps up service and performance of other lines and fare integration comes along.

I totally agree Mississauga needs more. My point was meant more as - is MCC actually a useful transit hub (ie a single point of transfer or arrival/departure) or is it just a district to be served better? If some proportion of riders are just passing through along Hurontario or Dundas or along the Milton GO, do they need to go there at all? There's a difference between "Needing to get people around Mississauga much better" and "Needing to get people to MCC"

- Paul

 

[sixrings]

I totally agree Mississauga needs more. My point was meant more as - is MCC actually a useful transit hub (ie a single point of transfer or arrival/departure) or is it just a district to be served better? If some proportion of riders are just passing through along Hurontario or Dundas or along the Milton GO, do they need to go there at all? There's a difference between "Needing to get people around Mississauga much better" and "Needing to get people to MCC"

- Paul

As a Scarborough resident I hated the hub approach of STC. But without the same amount of connections in Mississauga I don’t know what else works. Anyways any subway go or Ontario line to Mcc isn’t for getting around Mississauga it’s for connecting it to Toronto which connects to other cities.

 

[afransen]

As a Scarborough resident I hated the hub approach of STC. But without the same amount of connections in Mississauga I don’t know what else works. Anyways any subway go or Ontario line to Mcc isn’t for getting around Mississauga it’s for connecting it to Toronto which connects to other cities.

Line 2 would be an awful way to connect MCC to Toronto. Line 2 is way too slow. Mississauga doesn't need frequent stops, it needs regional connectivity.

 

[syn]

^I haven’t seen much detail in terms of either residential or employment numbers for the planned redevelopment at Sherway, but one can’t justify a heavy rail line to a mall. Even with new development, won’t an LRT or two suffice?

I would be perfectly happy with stopping at Cloverdale altogether - it’s a much more logical place for a hub than Kipling. (Maybe the only recently opened terminal at Kipling could be converted to the world’s most expensive farmer’s market.)

While it’s not the plan (yet), Dundas is the only east west street in east Mississauga that can handle transit oriented density. If we are saying we want Line 2 to extend further, shoudn’t we scrap the BRT, rezone Dundas to some higher TOD value, and run the subway there?

Above all, we should have the whole Transit City style subway vs LRT debate all over again, with a new territory but the same basic theme…. why tunnel at all when we can build far more kms of surface (or elevated) LRT for the same price? Is density in Mississauga reaching the levels where we really need subways? Can an LRT to Sherway handle whatever ridership we project?

The idea of converting the Milton Line to something else and making a diversion is really interesting. I wonder how well it could meet the needs of those commuting from Lisgar or Milton…. that’s a long ride.

- Paul

It may seem like ancient history, but the discussion around the SSE and transit expansion was significantly different than it is now. Justification for the extension revolved around future growth, and eliminating an unfair transfer. Scarborough had an elevated rail line that would operational right now had we gone in this direction, but it simply had to be a subway and had to be underground to provide a transfer-free ride to downtown Toronto.

I think an LRT to Sherway would be a great idea, but we have set a precedent for building infrastructure based on desire and was is supposedly 'deserved'. A lot of people in different areas will want what they believe they deserve too.

Line 2 would be an awful way to connect MCC to Toronto. Line 2 is way too slow. Mississauga doesn't need frequent stops, it needs regional connectivity.

I agree. Square One, however, is about the same distance from Union as Scarborough Town Centre.

If Mississauga starts making noise about wanting a subway connection it's something politicians may be unable to ignore.

 

[sixrings]

Line 2 would be an awful way to connect MCC to Toronto. Line 2 is way too slow. Mississauga doesn't need frequent stops, it needs regional connectivity.

I guess I imagined very few stops from Sherway to MCC. I understand the want for the GO to be the saviour but I won’t complain if it’s a subway extension.

 

[sixrings]

I agree. Square One, however, is about the same distance from Union as Scarborough Town Centre.

If Mississauga starts making noise about wanting a subway connection it's something politicians may be unable to ignore.

If STC can get a subway I don’t see why MCC couldn’t. Then it could maintain the cooksville and port credit GO trains. That’s a lot of transit options to get into and around Toronto.

 

[Deadpool X]

Subway from MCC would be useful for destinations like Etobicoke and other places before downtown. For downtown and beyond, GO is better suited. MCC is close to 403 and a bus transitway, so that's a good location for a subway terminal compared to Cooksville.

 

[sixrings]

Subway from MCC would be useful for destinations like Etobicoke and other places before downtown. For downtown and beyond, GO is better suited. MCC is close to 403 and a bus transitway, so that's a good location for a subway terminal compared to Cooksville.

Yes mcc is the preference. Subways are now almost exclusively built underground. So my queensway option was just a way to do it on the cheap above ground. It’s not ideal but any subway would be better than no subway.

Also for a lot of Mississauga they have to take a bus to square one. They don’t want to take another bus even if it’s in a transit way just to connect to a subway and then likely to have to transfer again at either st George or Yonge. That’s a nightmare trip and as much as I make fun of the term transfer city this is the definition of that.

 

[afransen]

It may seem like ancient history, but the discussion around the SSE and transit expansion was significantly different than it is now. Justification for the extension revolved around future growth, and eliminating and unfair transfer. Scarborough had an elevated rail line that would operational right now had we gone in this direction, but it simply had to be a subway and had to be underground to provide a transfer-free ride to downtown Toronto.

I think an LRT to Sherway would be a great idea, but we have set a precedent for building infrastructure based on desire and was is supposedly 'deserved'. A lot of people in different areas will want what they believe they deserve too.


I agree. Square One, however, is about the same distance from Union as Scarborough Town Centre.

If Mississauga starts making noise about wanting a subway connection it's something politicians may be unable to ignore.

Even if people were going to intermediate destinations in Etobicoke, it would make more sense to me to take GO to Kipling and transfer. I see very little value in dragging Line 2 all the way out to MCC if it can be accomplished more cheaply with another technology, and ideally upgrading the whole Milton Line (benefitting a wide swath of Mississauga + Milton) rather than just serving a few stops along the way to MCC.

And please, no LRT. Dundas BRT is great. Develop that corridor and maybe eventually Line 2 could be extended along Dundas. An LRT to connect MCC to Line 2 is just madness and a colossal waste of money. There is already an LRT that connects MCC to heavy rail. The problem is the level of service on the Milton Line. I don't think an LRT would achieve anything an express bus that ran down the HuLRT ROW and Dundas BRT ROW could not achieve. That would actually be significantly faster than an LRT.

 

[M II A II R II K]

The line could eventually from Mississauga through Toronto and into Markham and Stouffville.

 

[superelevation]

It may seem like ancient history, but the discussion around the SSE and transit expansion was significantly different than it is now. Justification for the extension revolved around future growth, and eliminating an unfair transfer. Scarborough had an elevated rail line that would operational right now had we gone in this direction, but it simply had to be a subway and had to be underground to provide a transfer-free ride to downtown Toronto.

I think an LRT to Sherway would be a great idea, but we have set a precedent for building infrastructure based on desire and was is supposedly 'deserved'. A lot of people in different areas will want what they believe they deserve too.


I agree. Square One, however, is about the same distance from Union as Scarborough Town Centre.

If Mississauga starts making noise about wanting a subway connection it's something politicians may be unable to ignore.

LRT to Sherway?! When there is a mostly available above ground row which could be used to logically extend the subway ? Why would we build a crappy shuttle and force people to transfer, plus you have another fleet disconnected fleet etc

 

[crs1026]

LRT to Sherway?! When there is a mostly available above ground row which could be used to logically extend the subway ? Why would we build a crappy shuttle and force people to transfer, plus you have another fleet disconnected fleet etc

Because a) It creates other options for where Line 2 might be routed b) as yet no one has shown data demonstrating that subway-level capacity will be needed and c) there is nothing “crappy” about LRT - or even BRT.

I don’t foresee that the industrial area between Kipling and Sherway will be converted to higher density. Sherway may be a useful terminal point for Line 2, but given the low density west of Etobicoke Creek there certainly isn’t any case to extend it any further than that. So unless the Sherway precinct will generate sufficient density, it’s a waste to go there as a subway, above ground or otherwise. There is little ridership generated except along Dundas. (Even there, some feel BRT will suffice)

LRT along the Queensway can be justified by the new development going in along its length, and linking the Mall to the population near Humber Bay and beyond to Downtown (perhaps via Ontario Line) is a good thing.

The Mall owners have lobbied for a subway for decades, but the numbers aren’t there. The entire workforce of a retail mall would barely fill a string of buses. And the clientele is all non peak, post morning rush and gone by 10 PM. The redevelopment, and not the retail, is the only thing that could create enough ridership to justify a subway level of investment.

- Paul

 

[steviej1]

Because a) It creates other options for where Line 2 might be routed b) as yet no one has shown data demonstrating that subway-level capacity will be needed and c) there is nothing “crappy” about LRT - or even BRT.

I don’t foresee that the industrial area between Kipling and Sherway will be converted to higher density. Sherway may be a useful terminal point for Line 2, but given the low density west of Etobicoke Creek there certainly isn’t any case to extend it any further than that. So unless the Sherway precinct will generate sufficient density, it’s a waste to go there as a subway, above ground or otherwise. There is little ridership generated except along Dundas. (Even there, some feel BRT will suffice)

LRT along the Queensway can be justified by the new development going in along its length, and linking the Mall to the population near Humber Bay and beyond to Downtown (perhaps via Ontario Line) is a good thing.

The Mall owners have lobbied for a subway for decades, but the numbers aren’t there. The entire workforce of a retail mall would barely fill a string of buses. And the clientele is all non peak, post morning rush and gone by 10 PM. The redevelopment, and not the retail, is the only thing that could create enough ridership to justify a subway level of investment.

- Paul

An LRT to Sherway would be a joke. There is already a Dundas BRT that is planned, and having an 'LRT' for roughly 3.5 km is absolutely nonsensical and force a linear transfer for a shuttle doesn't make any sense.

 

[syn]

Because a) It creates other options for where Line 2 might be routed b) as yet no one has shown data demonstrating that subway-level capacity will be needed and c) there is nothing “crappy” about LRT - or even BRT.

I don’t foresee that the industrial area between Kipling and Sherway will be converted to higher density. Sherway may be a useful terminal point for Line 2, but given the low density west of Etobicoke Creek there certainly isn’t any case to extend it any further than that. So unless the Sherway precinct will generate sufficient density, it’s a waste to go there as a subway, above ground or otherwise. There is little ridership generated except along Dundas. (Even there, some feel BRT will suffice)

LRT along the Queensway can be justified by the new development going in along its length, and linking the Mall to the population near Humber Bay and beyond to Downtown (perhaps via Ontario Line) is a good thing.

The Mall owners have lobbied for a subway for decades, but the numbers aren’t there. The entire workforce of a retail mall would barely fill a string of buses. And the clientele is all non peak, post morning rush and gone by 10 PM. The redevelopment, and not the retail, is the only thing that could create enough ridership to justify a subway level of investment.

- Paul

This is a very sensible take. An LRT would be a terrific fit for this area.

 

[duffo]

This is a very sensible take. An LRT would be a terrific fit for this area.

Always thought a network like this would make a lot of sense in the future. Connect the rapidly growing density in Humber Bay Shores and along The Queensway to Kipling Station, Park Lawn GO, Sherway Gardens, IKEA and Humber College..