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enter username
Active Member
Given Cho's recent Sheppard announcements, and Saunders' friendship with Ford, this campaign plan might represent some secret near term plans for line 4 and an Ontario line extension
Willybru21
Active Member
Last one, I swear:
Sunnyside
Active Member
Isn't this based on the actual planned express bus map? I can see some of the changes but it would be nice if the changes were clearer. Although, I don't think the fantasy thread is the best spot for discussing official maps/visions like this- I think we need to have/reopen threads for conceptual plans/master plans that are a bit lower-level than true Regional TMPs, like the original version of this one... the thread for master plans exists, but this doesn't feel appropriate there right now. Very little talk about what are effectively 'official' fantasy documents that could be picked apart for ages with more realism and more fruitful conversation.
Willybru21
Active Member
Yeah it is based on the actual REB map, I posted it alongside my other maps which do fall under the fantasy category because I wasn’t aware of any other threads that are focused around other maps.
rbt
Senior Member
How much additional Metro should your fantasy map have? Catching Canada up to Spain, France, or even the USA:
Of course, this chart says nothing about the quality of service on the tracks. GO Milton Line and TTC Line 1 are equals for the above chart.
Of course, this chart says nothing about the quality of service on the tracks. GO Milton Line and TTC Line 1 are equals for the above chart.
Once a Leader in Urban Rail Investment, the United States Now Trails
Worldwide, metro service availability has expanded exponentially. In 1950, only 24 metropolitan areas in 13 countries globally could boast of a subway, elevated line, or monorail. Today, 232 metrop…
www.thetransportpolitic.com
innsertnamehere
Superstar
I don''t believe commuter rail is included - just LRT and subway. So the Hurontario LRT is given the same weight as the Ontario Line.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
If there was one single project that I think would be TRULY transformative it would be, by a long shot, is building the mid-town rail {CN, CP?} from Milton to Markham. After the current projects under construction, ML should put all of it's resources towards buying the corridor {and helping build the "missing link"} and using it as a true RER regional route. The commuter route from Milton to Union could stay for peak periods but the route should have RER frequencies going across the region.
GO expansion is great but it is still very radial from Union and outside of those going from a lakeshore location to another one, it is relatively useless for cross regional trips and Eglinton is equally useless. Suburb to suburb travel is essential to get people onto transit and Toronto is quite unique in having an existing rail corridor that goes from one end of the city to the other that doesn't go downtown most of which is already grade separated and all of it is twin tracked...........it's a true gift from the infrastructure Gods. 99% of the world's major cities would give their left nut to have such a corridor. The route would connect all parts of the metro region and would truly result in on of the best S-Bahn/RER type systems on the planet.
GO expansion is great but it is still very radial from Union and outside of those going from a lakeshore location to another one, it is relatively useless for cross regional trips and Eglinton is equally useless. Suburb to suburb travel is essential to get people onto transit and Toronto is quite unique in having an existing rail corridor that goes from one end of the city to the other that doesn't go downtown most of which is already grade separated and all of it is twin tracked...........it's a true gift from the infrastructure Gods. 99% of the world's major cities would give their left nut to have such a corridor. The route would connect all parts of the metro region and would truly result in on of the best S-Bahn/RER type systems on the planet.
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Sunnyside
Active Member
Your right to recognize the midtown corridor for its value- the entire CP alignment is both good for downtown-bound and some suburb to suburb trips. But, think it’s time we really evaluate how good the line is for those. It really does not go that far north when bypassing Union, and any suburb to suburb trips would see minimal time penalties just taking a Milton line through Union and transferring. I’m saying the core section of the midtown corridor is simply best for Mississauga/ Etobicoke to Scarborough/ Markham trips, but not too much else in the 416.
Suburb to suburb travel patterns via transit also can be seen by just looking at the GO bus network. The 905 would much more greatly benefit from a 403/407 transitway (bus or rail) than using the midtown corridor, because we already know that’s how the 905 travels- people go way further around Toronto than the midtown corridor does. I’d rather we put our eggs in the 407 basket if our goal is to serve intra-905 trips, and recognize the midtown for what it is- a very well-aligned downtown feeder GO line, and downtown bypass- not a Toronto bypass.
afransen
Senior Member
Might be radical, but I think upgrading Milton Line to Union would be more powerful than the GO Crosstown alignment, as it will make connections to other radial lines effective, and not just trips to Scarb/Markham. That, plus an eventual 407 LRT could dramatically improve suburban connectivity. And of course GO Express buses with a functional highway network (enabled by appropriate levels of tolling) would also do a lot as well.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
As I stated, the Milton/Union line should still remain and especially for peak periods but the regular GO RER service should be a Mid-town corridor. Some of the best used lines in the world are by-pass and circular ones because they connect all the different rail corridors including those that go downtown.
Also, a Mid-town route gives some reprieve from Union which is going to be much needed as GO expansion quadruples over the next decade with all of the routes running thru Union. The Mid-town corridor basically runs parallel to the 401 and the 401 exemplifies how many Torontonians are going from suburb to suburb.
MrGoose
Active Member
A great E-W corridor for a rapid midtown corridor would have been Eglinton. If we had designed Eglinton Crosstown for full grade separation, high floor heavy rail, with 1-2km stop spacing then it would be the Midtown corridor you are asking for.
Could've been Crossrail Toronto, but nope, we got a traffic jammed streetcar instead.
Sunnyside
Active Member
This topic has been discussed before, so I don’t want to rehash things too much… but the midtown corridor can’t really both relieve Union and be a bypass to it. It’s too far north to effectively relieve it (there’s no destinations nearby, and dumping those people onto Line 1 is an even worse idea) and imo the midtown corridor too far south to effectively parallel the 401 and match trip patterns.
Another problem with using the 401 as an example is it connects a lot more than just 3 or 4 suburbs; It connects everything, including other cities bigger than the GTHA. Even for local travel, people use the 401 because it is the only option, not a good one. Someone going from Brampton to Markham might use it if they can’t afford the 407. But is it really a good idea to suggest that person takes a Kitchener Line train south for 40 minutes, transfers somewhere south of St. Clair and grabs the midtown corridor just to go north for another 40 minutes to Markham? At that point going to Union isn’t really a big deal, because this person is just going to take a 407 GO bus- they aren’t gonna grab any train at all. Since this is a fantasy thread, I’ll choose to believe we’ll build both a 407 “LRT” and the midtown someday.
I’m not saying the midtown corridor is bad, it definetely isn’t. I think there’s merit too in suggesting it allows some intersuburban trips. But it isn’t a complete game changer for the 905 to be able to bypass downtown Toronto by like 5km- their still going 90% of the way.
Ill conclude that any scheme involving the midtown corridor will see parallel new service to Union. The good news is once there seems to be a glimmer of opportunity to use the Midtown Corridor, you can bet Metrolinx will take it. Even if that means just commuter service at first. Id love to be wrong.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
This exactly right. Toronto had both the opportunity and money to build a true crosstown route but Miller wanted a rapid transit line that would still help Grandma get to local hair salon and he would also not entertain any form of transit that could not be automated as that would have cut into his union support. Now what you have is the world's most expensive streetcar that has taken over a decade to build with no end in sight. If they had built a grade separated, automated line and with less than half the stations they have now then it could have been built a much longer distance, cheaper to build and operate, had much higher capacity, be far more reliable, and been a fast cross regional route. That ship has sailed as Eglinton is just another local route and hence a true cross regional route is still needed and the Mid-town Corridor is ideal.
Like I said, VERY few cities enjoy such a rail corridor and Toronto should take advantage of it. It's a transit goldmine.
afransen
Senior Member
This kind of raises the question of why bother with the CP mainline if we can just build around it. Most the figures quoted for what it would cost to pry CP off the corridor with the Missing Link ($10B, probably more like $20B+) seem to be in the range for what it would cost to build an underground/elevated regional rail link, maybe the point is moot.