Transit Fantasy Maps

[doady]

Do these people ever consider the fact that the east end is significantly larger and more populated than the west? It shouldn't be that surprising that the east end is getting a somewhat larger share of new transit.

View attachment 65704

Seems about the same to me, if just considering Toronto. Old Toronto has more population west of Yonge. Same with North York.

But GTA overall, the population is much, much higher west of Yonge. There is farmland in Scarborough. Not so much in Etobicoke. There's no Mississauga or Brampton beyond Scarborough.

So I don't know how you can say we should invest into transit more east of Yonge than west of Yonge. Bloor-Danforth Line extends close to the Mississauga border, so it should be extended to Pickering border as well? Don't tell me you believe this.

Even disregarding the GTA's population weighted heavily west of Yonge, and just looking at the distance, a subway extension to Scarborough Town Centre is same as an extension to Tomken Road in Mississauga. Scarborough is basically the Mississauga of the East.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Okay, so I made a fantasy map that utilizes the current Relief line plan (or what little we know about it from info leaked by the G&M). But added to it a spur to what may very well be the site of an Expo - if we are to bid on it. I'm not wedded to the idea or anything, and I don't even really like the idea of a subway spur in such a locale. But one of the leading reasons I think something like this may be worth discussing is that IMO there are major problems with the existing proposals for waterfront transit (cost, construction time, insufficient capacity, lack of speed, and the craziness of rebuilding Union Loop).

Personally I'd prefer to see the waterfront transit vision reanalyzed, and for 2km of the East Bayfront streetcar between Bay and Cherry to be grade-separated (trenched, tunneled, elevated, etc) so as to quickly serve what may very well be an Expo site and/or a future business district in the Lower Don Lands and Port Lands. But in this map what exists is a shuttle operating from the core, and between Sumach and Broadview South stations uses a single track spur that follows below the (planned but unbuilt) Broadview extension to serve the Lower Don Lands.

View attachment 65705

May as well add a station to the Unilever site and push the spur line deeper into the Portlands, if we are gonna redevelop that entire region anyway.

 

[44 North]

May as well add a station to the Unilever site and push the spur line deeper into the Portlands, if we are gonna redevelop that entire region anyway.

I wouldn't want to push a subway any deeper into the Port Lands. The existing plans for tram-style LRT is more than sufficient south of the Keating Channel. This extension of the legacy network would keep within the densities proposed, and probably any density that's even higher - which I wouldn't doubt due to a) use of DCs, b) S.37, and c) removal of BBA and flightpath height restrictions. The biggest area of concern IMO is having a reliable and quick way into/out of the Lower Don Lands and Port Lands. And if we don't see any changes to the EBF LRT proposal (i.e more grade-separation and less side-of-road alignments), then I think a subway spur would do a good job of addressing this. And plus, this is more about serving a potential Expo site.

Re: the Unilever site. I wouldn't want to add a station there with this spur. Too costly, and the site is already on GO's LSE and Stouffville corridors. Not to mention smack dab in the middle of a potential streetcar extension south along a Broadview Ave extn. Another thing is that I don't get the hubbub over the Unilever site. Sure it's large. But it's also reliant on Don mouth naturalization and flood protection in order to be rezoned, and it's not even on the water (so it's arguably less valuable than real waterfront sites).

IMO if we're really to be catering to a new waterfront community, it should be the 3C site near the old Home Depot lands at Cherry/Lake Shore. They have way bigger things planned, and are arguably farther along in their planning. If we're to be adding a RER/ST stop anywhere in this area it should be at Cherry to serve the East Bayfront, WDL, Distillery, and 3C site. In other words not Unilever.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

An update to my map from last page including the Finch West LRT:



And in 2041, with Relief Line extended to Sunnyside, and the Yonge North expansion.



Still don't know where to take the Sheppard line in this future scenario. SELRT and Sheppard subway both seem dead politically.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Seems about the same to me, if just considering Toronto. Old Toronto has more population west of Yonge. Same with North York.

But GTA overall, the population is much, much higher west of Yonge. There is farmland in Scarborough. Not so much in Etobicoke. There's no Mississauga or Brampton beyond Scarborough.

So I don't know how you can say we should invest into transit more east of Yonge than west of Yonge. Bloor-Danforth Line extends close to the Mississauga border, so it should be extended to Pickering border as well? Don't tell me you believe this.

Even disregarding the GTA's population weighted heavily west of Yonge, and just looking at the distance, a subway extension to Scarborough Town Centre is same as an extension to Tomken Road in Mississauga. Scarborough is basically the Mississauga of the East.

Unlike Mississauga however, Scarborough is incredibly under-served by GO-Lines. The majority of Scarberians have to bus towards either Kennedy/STC or to Line 1.

It should be no surprise that the Relief Line route extended to Sheppard and Don Mills becomes such a priority under those circumstances. Beyond Line 1 relief, it significantly cuts down the length and time of Scarborough bus commutes.

Now, re-activate the Midtown corridor, construct a few infill stations along the Stoufville line, and provide a Toronto-fare zone to the GO-RER lines in Scarborough, and the framing of transit discussion in Scarborough would completely change.

 

[dunkalunk]

Okay, so I made a fantasy map that utilizes the current Relief line plan (or what little we know about it from info leaked by the G&M). But added to it a spur to what may very well be the site of an Expo - if we are to bid on it. I'm not wedded to the idea or anything, and I don't even really like the idea of a subway spur in such a locale. But one of the leading reasons I think something like this may be worth discussing is that IMO there are major problems with the existing proposals for waterfront transit (cost, construction time, insufficient capacity, lack of speed, and the craziness of rebuilding Union Loop).

There are a number of plans that are in various stages of development apart from just an extension of the Cherry Streetcar right-of way (ROW). There are also early plans to extend Broadview ad its streetcar under the rail corridor and connect it with Lake Shore Blvd. Both of these dedicated streetcar ROWs would intersect with Relief Line stations, one of them could intersect GO/SMARTtrack at Cherry. The East Bayfront LRT is also still being considered.

I agree that the Union Loop has its issues, and may require bypassing. I'd personally move the Waterfront West LRT's alignment to Bremner, Tunnel under Maple Leaf Square and the Union Station Rail Corridor, and create a new underground streetcar station under Bay Street in front of GO's new terminal across the street from the ACC. (Map to Follow)

Creating a spur off the existing Relief Line through the Unilever site has its problems. If you split service coming from Downtown, this would create issues related to frequency and service pattern. The Relief Line can't serve it's named role if trains aren't frequent enough to transfer to.

Ultimately, I personally don't see how two dedicated streetcar ROWs connected to rapid transit and the would not provide sufficient capacity.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

An update to my map from last page including the Finch West LRT:

View attachment 65757

And in 2041, with Relief Line extended to Sunnyside, and the Yonge North expansion.

View attachment 65758

Still don't know where to take the Sheppard line in this future scenario. SELRT and Sheppard subway both seem dead politically.

I love how the Relief Line almost perfectly mirrors the University Line.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

I love how the Relief Line almost perfectly mirrors the University Line.

As does Crosstown East and Crosstown West. The symmetry there is just so aesthetically pleasing that it just has to be built.

But you just reminded me that the TTC style does not do right-angles. I guess I have something else to fix on my map now... Expect a v3 once I figure out what to do with Sheppard.

 

[gweed123]

Okay, so I made a fantasy map that utilizes the current Relief line plan (or what little we know about it from info leaked by the G&M). But added to it a spur to what may very well be the site of an Expo - if we are to bid on it. I'm not wedded to the idea or anything, and I don't even really like the idea of a subway spur in such a locale. But one of the leading reasons I think something like this may be worth discussing is that IMO there are major problems with the existing proposals for waterfront transit (cost, construction time, insufficient capacity, lack of speed, and the craziness of rebuilding Union Loop).

Personally I'd prefer to see the waterfront transit vision reanalyzed, and for 2km of the East Bayfront streetcar between Bay and Cherry to be grade-separated (trenched, tunneled, elevated, etc) so as to quickly serve what may very well be an Expo site and/or a future business district in the Lower Don Lands and Port Lands. But in this map what exists is a shuttle operating from the core, and between Sumach and Broadview South stations uses a single track spur that follows below the (planned but unbuilt) Broadview extension to serve the Lower Don Lands.

Personally, to connect to the Portlands/Expo site I'd prefer to see the Cherry streetcar ROW extended north to Queen, to a future DRL station. It could be tunnelled if necessary for that last bit, allowing for an underground connection like at Spadina or Union. That would be far easier to build (especially since about 1/3rd of it is already there), and easier to scale up and down depending on demand. A low usage streetcar ROW doesn't carry nearly the same operating expenses as a low usage subway.

This setup also doesn't depend on the QQE project, since it would still have a subway connection. However, if that project were to go ahead, theoretically you could have two lines converging at Expo: one from Union, and one from Sumach (DRL).

Doing that also opens the door up to a Parliament LRT, which would in essence mirror Spadina, but on the eastern edge of downtown. That would also mean that the Expo connector lines would link to 3 of the 4 subway lines in the city. You may actually have created *gasp* a grid!

 

[nfitz]

Just shows how screwed the west end is getting. Why am I paying for transit in the east end only again?

Because the Scarborough councillors have been carrying out a co-ordinated campaign for 10 to 15 years. The Etobicoke councillors on the other hand ...

 

[jcam]

As does Crosstown East and Crosstown West. The symmetry there is just so aesthetically pleasing that it just has to be built.

But you just reminded me that the TTC style does not do right-angles. I guess I have something else to fix on my map now... Expect a v3 once I figure out what to do with Sheppard.

Go out another 20 years, and relief line goes up South Kingsway and Jane to Sheppard, Sheppard goes west to Jane, and ta-da! Toronto's own circle line.

Wisla, hope you don't mind I added on.

 

[doady]

Unlike Mississauga however, Scarborough is incredibly under-served by GO-Lines. The majority of Scarberians have to bus towards either Kennedy/STC or to Line 1.

It should be no surprise that the Relief Line route extended to Sheppard and Don Mills becomes such a priority under those circumstances. Beyond Line 1 relief, it significantly cuts down the length and time of Scarborough bus commutes.

Now, re-activate the Midtown corridor, construct a few infill stations along the Stoufville line, and provide a Toronto-fare zone to the GO-RER lines in Scarborough, and the framing of transit discussion in Scarborough would completely change.

Don't get me wrong, I am supportive of the DRL. It should be Toronto's #1 priority. DRL is actually DRL2. DRL1 was University-Spadina. Relief is needed both west and east.

Scarborough has Stouffville Line which is very similar to Milton Line in Mississauga. Lakeshore Line provides all-day 30 minute service in both Mississauga and Scarborough. Really, the only difference is GO fares are not competitive with TTC fares. Lack of fare integration between TTC and GO doesn't help either (GO riders in Mississauga only have pay to 80 cents more to use MiWay).

 

[Filip]

Seems about the same to me, if just considering Toronto. Old Toronto has more population west of Yonge. Same with North York.

But GTA overall, the population is much, much higher west of Yonge. There is farmland in Scarborough. Not so much in Etobicoke. There's no Mississauga or Brampton beyond Scarborough.

So I don't know how you can say we should invest into transit more east of Yonge than west of Yonge. Bloor-Danforth Line extends close to the Mississauga border, so it should be extended to Pickering border as well? Don't tell me you believe this.

Even disregarding the GTA's population weighted heavily west of Yonge, and just looking at the distance, a subway extension to Scarborough Town Centre is same as an extension to Tomken Road in Mississauga. Scarborough is basically the Mississauga of the East.

That's exactly my point. The population on the west end (disregarding municipal boundaries) is on an order of magnitude larger than the east. Ok.. So Mississauga is not Toronto (therefore doesn't have the same support as Scarborough would), but that doesn't mean all those Mississauga drivers making my commute hell get to disappear on the border.

Why should my commute last as long as someone from Scarborough when I can walk to downtown in about an hour and a half! Try that from STC.

 

[nfitz]

Go out another 20 years, and relief line goes up South Kingsway and Jane to Sheppard, Sheppard goes west to Jane, and ta-da! Toronto's own circle line.

2051 and still no Sheppard East LRT!

I doubt they'd build a subway station at Royal Orchard - more likely if they start adding infill stations that they'd build Willowdale.

Also, that DRL downtown is misleading - it makes it look like it stops at both Queen and Osgoode rather than just at City Hall.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Why should my commute last as long as someone from Scarborough when I can walk to downtown in about an hour and a half! Try that from STC.

The situation is exactly the same at the east end of the city.

Queen and Lakeshore to City Hall
Walk: 1 h 38 min
Transit 47 min

Scarborough Centre to City Hall
Transit 50 min