Transit Fantasy Maps

[diminutive]

Question, why even in fantasy, all the maps show nothing but completely straight lines following the grid? Do they really have to be?

Stations should go where demand is, instead of giving a station just because it happens on the line. For example, Yonge/Lawrence and York Mills don't really deserve stations there but they have just because they are on Yonge st. If designed a better way, the line could potentially give more densely populate area DIRECT subway access (not just a feeder bus). How many people are actually within walking distance to Lawrence or York Mills station? The urge to have all lines on straight lines in Toronto is uncanny.

Why pick on Lawrence and York Mills? Both are actually pretty well used. Above subway averages, at least.

I guess theoretically, the reason you tend to have lines following the street grid is because feeder routes work on the street grid, and those feeder routes are where most of the subway's ridership comes from.

 

[ehlow]

Question, why even in fantasy, all the maps show nothing but completely straight lines following the grid? Do they really have to be?

Stations should go where demand is, instead of giving a station just because it happens on the line. For example, Yonge/Lawrence and York Mills don't really deserve stations there but they have just because they are on Yonge st. If designed a better way, the line could potentially give more densely populate area DIRECT subway access (not just a feeder bus). How many people are actually within walking distance to Lawrence or York Mills station? The urge to have all lines on straight lines in Toronto is uncanny.

Thank you for bringing up an important aspect of transit network design.

I strongly prefer straight lined grids of frequent transit lines.

1. It's easy to navigate and follows the street pattern. Other cities don't have such a street pattern.
2. You can go from any point to another by transferring once, which if frequency is high is not a huge penalty.
3. It provides redundancy when certain lines are closed or shut down for whatever reason
4. In general I find straight transit lines much more useful than "loops" or other things.

The main exception is that the GO lines are radial, which is fine for a regional service.

More info:
http://www.humantransit.org/2010/02/the-power-and-pleasure-of-grids.html
http://www.humantransit.org/2014/02/video-my-presentation-in-toronto.html

 

[ksun]

Why pick on Lawrence and York Mills? Both are actually pretty well used. Above subway averages, at least.

I guess theoretically, the reason you tend to have lines following the street grid is because feeder routes work on the street grid, and those feeder routes are where most of the subway's ridership comes from.

They are well used only because of the buses that go there. But probably few who directly embark the system from those two stations. - how many people live within 15 minutes walk from Yonge/Lawrence or York Mills?

My point was it makes more sense if stations are placed in high density areas which provide direct subway access to a much larger population. Those who live near low density area such as near Lawrence/York Mills stations should take the bus to get to a subway station.

In this way, it cuts the travel time for more people. Does that make sense?

 

[ksun]

http://www.humantransit.org/2010/02/the-power-and-pleasure-of-grids.html
http://www.humantransit.org/2014/02/video-my-presentation-in-toronto.html

The articles make sense.
However, grids are more efficient only when population is somewhat evenly distributed, so that everyone can walk to a station within a reasonable time. In Toronto, it is hardly the truth. Many subway stations are located in very low density areas (Lawrence, York Mills, Summer Hill, Dupont, Castle Frank).

Does it make more sense to have 2,000 people at Thorncliff Park to have direct access to subway and ask those 200 living near Lawrence/Yonge to take a bus first to the subway stations, or vise versa (as we are doing now)?

 

[ehlow]

They are well used only because of the buses that go there. But probably few who directly embark the system from those two stations. - how many people live within 15 minutes walk from Yonge/Lawrence or York Mills?

My point was it makes more sense if stations are placed in high density areas which provide direct subway access to a much larger population. Those who live near low density area such as near Lawrence/York Mills stations should take the bus to get to a subway station.

In this way, it cuts the travel time for more people. Does that make sense?

Most people going to York Mills station (and maybe Lawrence) already take the bus I would assume..

Eglinton station has both huge bus ridership as well as walk-in ridership. Finch station also gets massive ridership from the two Finch bus lines.

 

[ehlow]

The articles make sense.
However, grids are more efficient only when population is somewhat evenly distributed, so that everyone can walk to a station within a reasonable time. In Toronto, it is hardly the truth. Many subway stations are located in very low density areas (Lawrence, York Mills, Summer Hill, Dupont, Castle Frank).

Does it make more sense to have 2,000 people at Thorncliff Park to have direct access to subway and ask those 200 living near Lawrence/Yonge to take a bus first to the subway stations, or vise versa (as we are doing now)?

Grids aren't just about subways (or LRTs), but also frequent (sometimes express) bus lines.

Many people in Toronto are within walking distance to a frequent bus, then take the bus to the subway and transfer.

For example a huge amount of people take the Finch East bus to Finch station, then take the Yonge subway.

Say you're travelling from Eglinton & Dufferin to Yonge & St Clair. You could take the Eglinton West bus to Eglinton station, then take the subway down to St Clair.

 

[car4041]

They are well used only because of the buses that go there. But probably few who directly embark the system from those two stations. - how many people live within 15 minutes walk from Yonge/Lawrence or York Mills?

My point was it makes more sense if stations are placed in high density areas which provide direct subway access to a much larger population. Those who live near low density area such as near Lawrence/York Mills stations should take the bus to get to a subway station.

Do you have a proposal for where the subway should have gone, instead of Yonge & Lawrence and Yonge & York Mills? Everything around there is low-density residential, for kilometres.

 

[BurlOak]

Maybe I missed it, but I came across this article, from 3 months ago, about short-turning the northbound Spadina train at Bay Lower. I need to think about it some more because it seems the proposal, the diagram, and the TTC comment contradict themselves. I am also not sure it would help the afternoon rush as well.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201..._station_to_relieve_yongeuniversity_line.html

 

[rbt]

Maybe I missed it, but I came across this article, from 3 months ago, about short-turning the northbound Spadina train at Bay Lower. I need to think about it some more because it seems the proposal, the diagram, and the TTC comment contradict themselves. I am also not sure it would help the afternoon rush as well.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201..._station_to_relieve_yongeuniversity_line.html

All this time after installing the Queens Quay tram, a ton of people still take Bathurst tram to get to the Ex. Simply put, people don't change pattern easily. If this was functional, it would take a lot of effort to make it used. TTC might have to skip Yonge station for a bit to make it happen.

The second issue is that this helps relieve St. George, not Bloor/Yonge as it takes travellers to the University line first. How many people will stay on the train at Yonge (coming from the East is the problem), go to Lower Bay, then ride around the loop to get to King or Queen? They can do that today at St. George already.

If the Lower Bay was instead Lower Sherborne and a next stop of Wellesley it might work quite well.

 

[andrewpmk]

All this time after installing the Queens Quay tram, a ton of people still take Bathurst tram to get to the Ex. Simply put, people don't change pattern easily. If this was functional, it would take a lot of effort to make it used. TTC might have to skip Yonge station for a bit to make it happen.

The second issue is that this helps relieve St. George, not Bloor/Yonge as it takes travellers to the University line first. How many people will stay on the train at Yonge (coming from the East is the problem), go to Lower Bay, then ride around the loop to get to King or Queen? They can do that today at St. George already.

If the Lower Bay was instead Lower Sherborne and a next stop of Wellesley it might work quite well.

Usually I'll use Lakeshore GO to go to the CNE now that it runs every 30 minutes. All the other transit options are too crowded.

 

[rbt]

Usually I'll use Lakeshore GO to go to the CNE now that it runs every 30 minutes. All the other transit options are too crowded.

Sometimes the wisest amongst us do not swim with the crowd.

 

[doady]

I'm not sure why someone would use GO within Toronto especially if they don't live within walking distance of a GO station. E.g. taking 76 Royal York South to Mimico station is $2.70, and taking Lakeshore West train to Exhibition is $4.77 at least, for $7.44 total for a 5km trip. Who has that kind of money to burn? Imagine taking your whole family, how much that would cost. Might as well just take the car and pay for parking, it would be cheaper.

 

[nfitz]

I'm not sure why someone would use GO within Toronto especially if they don't live within walking distance of a GO station. E.g. taking 76 Royal York South to Mimico station is $2.70, and taking Lakeshore West train to Exhibition is $4.77 at least, for $7.44 total for a 5km trip. Who has that kind of money to burn? Imagine taking your whole family, how much that would cost. Might as well just take the car and pay for parking, it would be cheaper.

Traffic? Parking? Personally when I use GO, I've already got a TTC Metropass, so the only additional cost is the GO ticket. And GO is faster than driving home (about a 15-minute walk from Danforth Station).

Mimico to Exhibition is $4.77 (with Presto). But if you are just going to Exhibition for a game, and you tap on to return within 3-hours of your initial tap at Mimico (enough time for an event at BMO Field), the return trip only costs 9¢. This would make the return trip $4.86, which is cheaper than the $5.40 return trip on TTC.

 

[Johnny Au]

Traffic? Parking? Personally when I use GO, I've already got a TTC Metropass, so the only additional cost is the GO ticket. And GO is faster than driving home (about a 15-minute walk from Danforth Station).

Mimico to Exhibition is $4.77 (with Presto). But if you are just going to Exhibition for a game, and you tap on to return within 3-hours of your initial tap at Mimico (enough time for an event at BMO Field), the return trip only costs 9¢. This would make the return trip $4.86, which is cheaper than the $5.70 return trip on TTC.

Actually, the return trip on TTC would be $5.40 assuming that the person uses two tokens.

 

[ehlow]

Traffic? Parking? Personally when I use GO, I've already got a TTC Metropass, so the only additional cost is the GO ticket. And GO is faster than driving home (about a 15-minute walk from Danforth Station).

Mimico to Exhibition is $4.77 (with Presto). But if you are just going to Exhibition for a game, and you tap on to return within 3-hours of your initial tap at Mimico (enough time for an event at BMO Field), the return trip only costs 9¢. This would make the return trip $4.86, which is cheaper than the $5.70 return trip on TTC.

Now that Lakeshore east is every 30 minutes, how many are taking GO instead of the TTC to go from places like east Danforth or Scarborough to downtown I wonder?