W. K. Lis
Superstar
Maybe the opponents of the Sheppard East LRT should start a petition to replace the streetcar subway from Union to Queen's Quay with a heavy rail subway, instead of the plans to enlarge the current streetcar loop at Union.
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Transit City: Sheppard East Debate
- Thread starter unimaginative2
- Start date
golodhendil
Active Member
^ And that's because you have insider information that the Spadina and Waterfront LRTs would in the forseeable future be converted into HRT?
Or is it because Transfer City apologists think that anyone against any part of the plan are irrational zealots like themselves who are opposed to all LRT?
Or is it because Transfer City apologists think that anyone against any part of the plan are irrational zealots like themselves who are opposed to all LRT?
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Whoaccio
Senior Member
Why?
Panzerfaust
Active Member
Let me get this straight. Being against a waste of money that will worsen service in the Sheppard corridor means everyone against the SELRT hates LRT in any form. Is that about right? Because that's all I gathered from your post. Either that or you think every part of the city is exactly the same and thus requires the exact same type of service. If that's the case, bring on the Calvington Subway.
DavidH
Senior Member
Not at all. GO Transit is a specific service operated by Metrolinx. I'm starting to see "GO Transit, a division of Metrolinx" in official communications.
Saying they are the same is like saying that the TTC is the City of Toronto.
I share your frustration with the plan, but that doesn't change the fact that Metrolinx as an entity *is* running this show. They have overall responsibility for getting the line built and will own the line when it is done. Furthermore, NO transit line can be legally built in the GTA without being included in the Metrolinx RTP.
Disagreeing with them does not mean that you will get anywhere by ignoring them.
And yet saying "Darth Vader" is acceptable is NOT ridiculous?
I do take it seriously, which is why I originally signed. I later changed my mind and supplied a sober comment (not an insult). How is that NOT taking it seriously? If I was not taking it seriously, I would have ignored the whole thing in the first place. If I was not taking it seriously, I would not be having a constructive conversation here.
If your goal is to accomplish something, you can't get anywhere by blaming other people as you are doing. Not everyone is going to agree with your approach, and your chosen petition venue lets detractors sign and then apply negative comments, or use fake names that just lend the entire exercise an air of disrespectability. Yes, internet petitions are limited, but that just should indicate that they are NOT going to be taken seriously unless you have an approach to get huge numbers of signatures. Clearly, the 22 signatures that exist will accomplish nothing.
If this approach is not getting the attention it needs to, then perhaps another one is needed. As just one example, perhaps organizing people to run a physical petition at Sheppard-corridor bus stops and subway stations? Use Facebook and twitter. Write an article for Spacing's blog. Write letters to the editors of newspapers for publication. And lots, lots more.
Making significant change to an already funded project is going to be a huge challenge, very likely impossible but at the very least very difficult. If you're serious about this issue, you've got to address that problem head on. Go ask Steve Munro what it took to save Toronto's streetcars back in the 1970s.
DavidH
Senior Member
This is the key point. LRT advocates talk about ensuring reliable service in increasing traffic as well as providing local service. Those are valid points, but the larger needs to satisfy longer distance travel are being ignored in the northern Toronto corridor. We're providing all kind of ways to get downtown but if you need to go from northern Etobicoke to northern Scarborough, or other similar locations, you're strictly out of luck with the current Metrolinx plan.
IF we had been getting the 401 REX line that appeared in early Metrolinx discussion papers, I'd be willing to accept the Sheppard LRT as a local service. But without that REX line, we have nothing to address the needs of the corridor.
I'm actually not sure that a Sheppard subway extension will be a full solution, but it would be better than nothing, particularly if we could get it extended westward.
lead82
Senior Member
Bingo! DING DING DING DING DING!
Now if only the SELRT zealots would understand that this is the issue most of us have with this particular line.
Miller & Co. think that no one will be taking this line for long distance travel. Well, of course not, since it will take too bloody long, they'll drive instead. Way to improve transit!
Now if only the SELRT zealots would understand that this is the issue most of us have with this particular line.
Miller & Co. think that no one will be taking this line for long distance travel. Well, of course not, since it will take too bloody long, they'll drive instead. Way to improve transit!
GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
If the biggest problem with Sheppard East is the speed of the proposed line, why not petition for a higher average speed? Frame your argument more positively instead of waving around words like 'cancel.'
The two biggest problems with the Sheppard LRT plan are the average operating speed of the line and the transfer at Don Mills. Both could be addressed without canceling the line outright.
The two biggest problems with the Sheppard LRT plan are the average operating speed of the line and the transfer at Don Mills. Both could be addressed without canceling the line outright.
Justin10000
Banned
Stop blaming Miller. It's a Metrolinx project now, and you should talking to them rather than blaming Miller, and Co.
No offense, but the excuse "We need a subway to address the needs of long distance travel" doesn't wash. A subway is simply not going to attract enough riders to justify the cost, and delay in getting the line built. A better crosstown option is needed, no doubt. But I think it would be better idea to talk about what GO can provide, rather than thinking a subway along Sheppard is going attract enough riders to make the line viable.
Long distance is important, but i question why it should be the TTC's job to accommodate those trips. There will not be a significant impact, and you`re not going to reduce congestion on Sheppard. That is one thing about Transit City I like; it`s making better use of the available road space.
It`s interesting that people claim supporters of the SELRT are zealots. I do not do see them whining and whining, blaming Miller(when you should be talking to Metrolinx, and creating poorly planned petitions. If anything, SELRT supporters have been a lot more reasonable.
The Sheppard LRT is being built, accept it. If anything, why not petition the TTC to make sure the line is run as efficiently as possible. As it stands, people are making assumptions based on the report. Interesting that the report stated the difference in travel between the SELRT, and subway isn`t that significant.
No offense, but the excuse "We need a subway to address the needs of long distance travel" doesn't wash. A subway is simply not going to attract enough riders to justify the cost, and delay in getting the line built. A better crosstown option is needed, no doubt. But I think it would be better idea to talk about what GO can provide, rather than thinking a subway along Sheppard is going attract enough riders to make the line viable.
Long distance is important, but i question why it should be the TTC's job to accommodate those trips. There will not be a significant impact, and you`re not going to reduce congestion on Sheppard. That is one thing about Transit City I like; it`s making better use of the available road space.
It`s interesting that people claim supporters of the SELRT are zealots. I do not do see them whining and whining, blaming Miller(when you should be talking to Metrolinx, and creating poorly planned petitions. If anything, SELRT supporters have been a lot more reasonable.
The Sheppard LRT is being built, accept it. If anything, why not petition the TTC to make sure the line is run as efficiently as possible. As it stands, people are making assumptions based on the report. Interesting that the report stated the difference in travel between the SELRT, and subway isn`t that significant.
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Whoaccio
Senior Member
^
That's a good point, probably one of the more logical ones actually. I would only add that the route should terminate at STC rather than Sheppard and Morningside.
The one issue though, from my perspective, is that the TTC's conception of "LRT" isn't really compatible with higher speeds or merging with the Sheppard tunnel. If we were talking C-Train esque LRT that traveled in more or less exclusive ROWs and stopping at modest but practical stations, I really wouldn't be complaining. As it is though, the TTC rejects this concept on favour of St. Clair style "LRTs" under the guise of promoting "local transit" and such. This conception of Sheppard LRT needs to die if a better conception of LRT is to succeed.
That's a good point, probably one of the more logical ones actually. I would only add that the route should terminate at STC rather than Sheppard and Morningside.
The one issue though, from my perspective, is that the TTC's conception of "LRT" isn't really compatible with higher speeds or merging with the Sheppard tunnel. If we were talking C-Train esque LRT that traveled in more or less exclusive ROWs and stopping at modest but practical stations, I really wouldn't be complaining. As it is though, the TTC rejects this concept on favour of St. Clair style "LRTs" under the guise of promoting "local transit" and such. This conception of Sheppard LRT needs to die if a better conception of LRT is to succeed.
kEiThZ
Superstar
But how do you improve average speed? The EA stated that achieving 26 kph would require stop spacing of 800m. That's useless as stop spacing (since it would require a parallel bus service) and that's still slower than a subway. It is obvious that the SELRT is running up against the inherent limitations of at-grade operations.
And the transfer issue has only one solution that would completely eliminate it: convert the Sheppard subway to LRT. If we aren't willing to scrap the SELRT, it's one I'd support. However, there seems to be no appetite among politicians or transit advocates to go this far. So at best, we'll be stuck with a same-platform transfer. But if rumours are true, and Metrolinx pushes for a Finch-Sheppard Crosstown route, it's quite likely that the transfer at Don Mills will be more complex.
I support the Transit City concept in general. The only lines I really wish to see changed are Sheppard East and Eglinton West. I want them converted to subways. And I want the Malvern SRT extension downgraded to LRT with the Bloor-Danforth line extended to Scarborough Centre. LRT should be used where appropriate (Morningside, Jane, Kingston Rd, Don Mills, Finch West, Waterfront West and East, Progress to Malvern). It should not be used as a one-size fits all solution and it should certainly not be deployed on cross-town routes where speed is essential.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Well, now you're just whining about other people whining. Everyone forgets that a billion dollars is being spent here, as if that's pocket change. Cheaper than a subway extension but so what? It's still a very unreasonable pricetag for the service that we'll end up with.
Of course we're basing things on the EA...there's nothing else to go on. Please remember that the EA is optimistic, too. The line won't materialize better than planned and it'll probably be worse. The frequency and vehicle speed and signal priority and route management and any other details or features won't magically end up being better than expected. The 4 or 5 bus routes that might continue running along Sheppard are a nice touch.
The report makes no distinction between a subway extension and an LRT that retains the transfer but runs at "subway speeds" in terms of ridership, and why should it? The goal is justify a line on a fantasy map, to 'prove' to a public that sees daily evidence of the TTC's utter inability to provide good streetcar service that the subway should not be extended and that this streetcar ROW will be amazing. The goal is not to improve upon existing bus service, which the LRT will not do. That's the point here that everyone is missing...how do we *improve* transit in the area, not what's the most awesome transit line we should end up with. The entire premise of the LRT line is silly if we're looking to improve service along Sheppard in the best and most reasonable ways. Extending the subway is not a top priority, not even close. It should have been built in full all at once but it wasn't and it can wait. There's no rush.
The 17km/hr current bus speed is existing service, not what increased Rocket service could do, not with signal priority or a few queue-jumps, or POP, or articulated buses, or anything. Buses are already going faster than that in the eastern part of the corridor. 17 includes no Stouffville line grade separation and an often lengthy left turn onto Sheppard exiting Fairview. Whatever promises are tied to the LRT can be accomplished by buses, or can't be accomplished by either. Sorry, but that's just the way it is. Not a single person will leave their car for the LRT. Not a single rider will shift from Finch or Ellesmere. No one will be tempted to move to Malvern because of the amazing transit service on Sheppard that might slash an astonishing couple of minutes off a half hour trip. Vehicle speeds are only part of real travel times - what's the frequency, how long does it take to walk to a stop, do you have to cross lanes of traffic to get to the platform, can bunched vehicles pass each other, etc. Spend a bit on the Stouffville crossing, a short tunnel to get from Don Mills station to eastbound Sheppard, and maybe a few queue-jumps, extend/rebrand more 85 buses into a Sheppard East Rocket, and boom, a serious improvement while saving a fortune. Too bad this project isn't about serious improvements.
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Dan416
Senior Member
Okay if you're frustrated by the plan, why don't you do something constructive about it? If you don't think the solution is finishing the Sheppard Subway, what is your proposed solution? How do you think we should address Metrolinx? Metrolinx hasn't exactly been welcoming of public comment from what I can tell.
I fail to see how sitting back and letting this happen is a good use of taxpayer money. A billion dollars and it will barely be any faster than the current bus? Seriously?
W. K. Lis
Superstar
EnviroTO
Senior Member
Article in today's Toronto Sun:
http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2009/09/07/10775076-sun.html
Eglinton for sure, Sheppard East due to the existing stub maybe, but Scarborough-Malvern??? I seriously hope she meant the SRT replacement.
http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2009/09/07/10775076-sun.html
Eglinton for sure, Sheppard East due to the existing stub maybe, but Scarborough-Malvern??? I seriously hope she meant the SRT replacement.