Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

[waterloowarrior]

You are using outmoded transit metrics like travel time, ridership and cost recovery instead of much more applicable metrics like European-ness, ability to attract street level organic fair-trade cafes and turn poor Tamil families into upper-middle class childless white couples.

In fact, before LRT lines were implemented in Europe, the cities were suburban wastelands with little street life. Large cities like Paris, Rome and London had subway lines, which inevitably led to skyscrapers throughout the city with poor relationships to the street.

I was in Rome and Amsterdam this summer - both cities are building incredibly complex lines with massive archeological issues for Rome and the need for two TBMs/tunnels in Amsterdam (I think it's also using concrete sections under water)... somehow it can't be done here with relatively little constraints.

 

[Rainforest]

"A credible challenger to Mayor David Miller from the right will win strong support in Etobicoke and North York. Mr. Miller needs to win Scarborough. He wants to show Scarborough (short-changed when the Sheppard “stubway†ended at Don Mills Road) that it is his first priority for new rapid transit."

Then, the first LRT line in Scarborough could be the one that starts at Kennedy subway, runs east on Eglinton and Kingston Rd., and serves UTSC. It is in the TC plan anyway (former "Scarborough-Malvern" line, which is no longer expected to go to Malvern), but perhaps it should be moved up instead of Sheppard E.

First of all, there is quite a bit of transit demand on Eglinton and Kingston Rd., and the utility of LRT line there can hardly be disputed.

Secondly, if such line is built within a few years, it will help dealing with the temporary SRT closure coming around 2015 (whether it is for Mark II renovation, or conversion to LRT, or even replacement with subway).

And finally, a carhouse near the Eglinton / Kingston Rd. route will be very helpful for the future Eglinton Crosstown LRT.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

They did that in the EA. The bus averages about 17 km/h, while the LRT is estimated to average about 25 to 27 km/h. A subway travels at about 30 to 35 km/h.

Unfortunatly, since we don't have a demonstration project it's very easy for critics to say "we don't believe those numbers."

Well, those critics are right, because those numbers aren't correct.

The EA says 22-23 km/hr for 440m stop spacing. 800-1000m stop spacing would be faster (25-27 km/hr) but as modelled, the vehicles will be stopping at red lights, anyway, so they decided they might as well put stations everywhere.

The average speed of the Sheppard bus can only be 17 km/hr only when the *entire* route, from Yonge to Meadowvale, is included. The speed of the 85 from Don Mills to Meadowvale is 19.4 km/hr during the AM peak, 21.7 during the day, 18.1 during the PM peak, and 21.3 during the evening.

The speeds are identical outside of rush hour (and assume no additional Rocket services, no queue-jump lanes, or POP, or signal priority, etc.). What these numbers don't say is that the 85 actually gets faster the farther east you go...Sheppard's congestion drops off as you go east. The bus plying the stretch of Sheppard slated as the highest priority segment of Transit City is possibly already faster than the streetcar ROW will be (assuming the TTC operates it as smoothly as the computer model, of course). This also does not factor in frequency reductions, longer walking distances to stops, etc...and when the real difference is as little as 1 or 2 km/hr, even one minute of added walking time or one minute waiting time can mean longer travel times.

 

[kEiThZ]

The NIMBYes are coming out. Interesting that the spokesman in the above article has a car dealership. Surprise, surprise. Of course a car dealership would be against any rapid transit, it is competition.

It isn't NIMBYism. There is real frustration for the businesses along Sheppard. And the more they learn about it, the more they are upset by the idea. They aren't against the LRT. They are against how it's being implemented. I know their complaints because my father owns a small store down the street from Brimell and he's deciding right now whether to close down or not as are other stores nearby. Brimell, being one of the larger businesses is simply voicing the frustrations for the rest.

The businesses are concerned that the construction is going to harm business during the current downturn. That's a double whammy. Then there's the timing. The TTC says that the LRT will bring foot traffic to the businesses. Yet, if the line isn't going to be running any time soon after construction, businesses will take another hit as they loose drive-in traffic as left turns become cumbersome, and walk-in traffic doesn't materialize. The last (and relatively minor) concern is that the city isn't making sufficient effort to improve/beautify Sheppard. Though, that one I am sure will happen in due time.

So there are real concerns. I would like the city and the TTC to address them. I'd like to see the city act on the BIA's proposal to provide temporary tax relief during construction and I'd like to see the TTC move quick with it's project and construction management efforts so that there are no significant delays between the track being laid and LRT service along Sheppard. Most importantly, I wish they'd be more transparent. I could swear UT has more relevant info on the Sheppard East LRT than the TTC is providing to the business owners.

 

[W. K. Lis]

It isn't NIMBYism. There is real frustration for the businesses along Sheppard. And the more they learn about it, the more they are upset by the idea. They aren't against the LRT. They are against how it's being implemented. I know their complaints because my father owns a small store down the street from Brimell and he's deciding right now whether to close down or not as are other stores nearby. Brimell, being one of the larger businesses is simply voicing the frustrations for the rest.

The businesses are concerned that the construction is going to harm business during the current downturn. That's a double whammy. Then there's the timing. The TTC says that the LRT will bring foot traffic to the businesses. Yet, if the line isn't going to be running any time soon after construction, businesses will take another hit as they loose drive-in traffic as left turns become cumbersome, and walk-in traffic doesn't materialize. The last (and relatively minor) concern is that the city isn't making sufficient effort to improve/beautify Sheppard. Though, that one I am sure will happen in due time.

So there are real concerns. I would like the city and the TTC to address them. I'd like to see the city act on the BIA's proposal to provide temporary tax relief during construction and I'd like to see the TTC move quick with it's project and construction management efforts so that there are no significant delays between the track being laid and LRT service along Sheppard. Most importantly, I wish they'd be more transparent. I could swear UT has more relevant info on the Sheppard East LRT than the TTC is providing to the business owners.

I guess the example set by the building of the Yonge subway could be a warning of how bad business became as it was being constructed and the aftermath after it was finished.

Except that the construction will not be as bad as when the Yonge subway was being built.

 

[Dan416]

Why don't they go to Yonge North approach and demand a subway? Doesn't even make sense not to mention it.

 

[GTS]

I think LRT is great but I think the Sheppard Subway should be completed up to Kennedy at least and maybe to Scarborugh Town Center in some later phase. It would be good to see it extended westward to Downsview as well to help people get to the York U area easier. Universities are heavy transit users whatever city you are in.

 

[kEiThZ]

Why don't they go to Yonge North approach and demand a subway? Doesn't even make sense not to mention it.

From a business point of view, that'd be disastrous for some businesses. Sheppard East BIA would benefit since there would be no construction in its area. Keep in mind, that most of the businesses in the corridor are small businesses who are already struggling with the downturn. The inconvenience arising from construction will probably push many over the edge. So from that perspective LRT is probably better (quicker and lower impact construction, customers at surface level, etc.).

 

[jks]

TBMs won't be any inconvenience, except where there is a station.

 

[kEiThZ]

I am wondering why they don't interline the Sheppard subway and the LRT for one stop....consumers-don mills. They are doing that in Ottawa for the new LRT. They are building the LRT out to Tunney's Pasture but leaving the BRT in operation till Bayview. This way, westbound passengers don't have to transfer to go one stop on the LRT to a major employment node. And eastbound passengers on the BRT don't have to transfer to go one stop to a major mobility hub.. As it stands, eastbound passengers to consumers get screwed under the present plan if the transfer is at Don Mills. And if the transfer is at Consumers, westbound passengers getting off at Don Mills get screwed over with the extra transfer.

If I had to vote though, I'd prefer keeping the transfer at Don Mills.

 

[jks]

Well, you could use that argument for any two stations. Anyone between Yonge and Don Mills is screwed if they are going east. An people west of Younge are double-screwed if going east. Interlining for one segminet will only help some people. One mode of transit throughout all of Sheppard is the way to go.

 

[kEiThZ]

Well, you could use that argument for any two stations. Anyone between Yonge and Don Mills is screwed if they are going east. An people west of Younge are double-screwed if going east. Interlining for one segminet will only help some people. One mode of transit throughout all of Sheppard is the way to go.

I agree but since that doesn't look like its going to happen and we have two important destinations right beside each other, I think there's a case to be made for the interlining of one stop.

 

[Rainforest]

The quoted post is from the "Downtown Core Line - Possible Alignments?" thread, but really belongs here.

... there is NO reason TO extend Sheppard anywhere because the ridership is far too low... FAR too low. It's a money pit. Extending it will only make it a bigger money pit. Really stupid use of tax dollars to provide capacity that isn't needed.

That cost argument would apply to the original TC cost estimate for the Sheppard E line (560 m). Invested in the subway, that amount would only get the subway from Don Mills to VP.

However, the cost of Sheppard East related projects currently on the table is quite a bit higher: revised 800 m for the Sheppard E line, plus at least 300 m for the Finch / Don Mills LRT bypass (and perhaps more, if it has to be partly tunneled). For that amount of money, the subway could probably get from Don Mills to Kennedy.

The LRT is a far better solution to this. It's worth pointing out that even the LRT is on the low end of demand, only 3,000.

The same model that predicts 3,000 for Sheppard E LRT, predicts 5,000 for the subway extension. This is still low by subway standards, but there are two other factors in favor of the subway extension:

1) There is no alternative E-W rapid transit corridor across the north of 416, while the city is wider there than in the south due to the lake's geometry. A subway from Downsview to Kennedy can serve as such corridor. In particular, Finch E and Ellesmere bus routes (or future LRT lines) could be operating off the subway terminus at Sheppard / Kennedy. In contrast, the proposed Sheppard subway / LRT combo won't be useful for riders living / working at Finch E or Ellesmere.

2) It is difficult to schedule multiple branches of the planned Sheppard LRT (for example, Meadowvale / Zoo, Scarborough Centre, and Warden North). The total demand is within LRT capacity, but the problem is that Roads department does not want LR vehicles to run more often than once in 5 min, to avoid blocking the general traffic by LRT signal priority. So, to enable branches, we would have to either settle for very infrequent service on the branches, or run a very frequent service (2 or 3 min) in the common section but forfeit the signal priority. Obviously, the subway extension would not suffer from this problem.

Therefore, I believe that there is a case for extending Sheppard subway at least to Kennedy in the east, despite the relatively low ridership projections.

Eglinton will about double that, for example, and Eglinton's ridership is also still too low for a full-blown subway. LRT is the best solution for these corridors and the best use of limited funds.

For Eglinton, I agree that LRT is the best solution. The ridership projections for the Eglinton and Sheppard corridors are similar (perhaps Eglinton is even a little higher), but there are other routes for rapid E-W trips across the middle of 416: Bloor subway, and (hopefully) the future GO service on the CP's Midtown line.

... both Eglinton and Finch will provide the exact same function [connecting the Yonge and Spadina subways], both of which will be (mostly) underground (Finch is probably too narrow east of Bathurst). Why do we need a subway between two LRT lines that can handle the traffic between the two perfectly well?

The relevant section of Eglinton will be underground, but quite busy. Finch between Yonge and Keele will be mostly at surface (only a short stretch of Finch W, perhaps 300 m just west of Yonge, looks too narrow for surface LRT). So, a subway link between Downsview and Yonge / Sheppard won't be redundant.

Other advantages of extending Sheppard subway to Downsview would be a much better connection from York U to north-east, and from north-west to north-east (for example, from Keele / Wilson take a bus to Wilson stn, subway to Downsview, another subway to Warden North, and a bus to Finch / Warden).

Yet another bonus of the subway link would be non-revenue movement of trains.

I don't think that extending Sheppard subway to Downsview is urgent. It does not have to happen within the 25-year plan, but should be done at some point in future.

 

[Whoaccio]

In fact, before LRT lines were implemented in Europe, the cities were suburban wastelands with little street life. Large cities like Paris, Rome and London had subway lines, which inevitably led to skyscrapers throughout the city with poor relationships to the street.

Europe is nothing, you should see Asia. They don't even have LRTs yet, their cities are really just constellations of cul-de-sacs linked together by sprawling freeways!

Savages!

 

[waterloowarrior]

Europe is nothing, you should see Asia. They don't even have LRTs yet, their cities are really just constellations of cul-de-sacs linked together by sprawling freeways!
Savages!

Toronto should probably just rip out most of its subway lines and replace them with Transit City lines.. New development will spring up spontaneously. Poor neighourhoods like around Lawrence West will become mixed income. Desolate streets will become lively.

Actually I still don't understand this Finch connection with Sheppard that the Star is talking about. Would they extend the Finch line to Don Mills Road, then head down Don Mills road to Don Mills Station? It seems like such a waste of money. From an aerial it looks like mostly parks and SF homes along the way (although I guess some of this could be redeveloped)

Why not just build Sheppard subway to Finch West (interline with Spadina extension?), it would be much faster for anyone going east of Don Mills.