Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

[Dan416]

I don't see any point in having both LRT and subway along Sheppard. Yonge and Bloor both lost their streetcars when the subway was introduced. That's why I see this Sheppard East LRT as a complete and utter waste of money. I'd rather see incremental expansion of the Sheppard subway, even if it doesn't reach STC yet. But we should be planning for it to be a major east-west subway corridor.

 

[EnviroTO]

I agree with modifying the Sheppard subway to be used by LRT vehicles only until such time a subway extension is warranted. The cost of conversion is the cost of hanging catenary and filling the tunnel near the stations with gravel and laying tracks on top. None of which makes converting back to a subway later a big deal (remove the gravel and reconnect the old tracks). For the cost of gravel and catenary you eliminate transfers and create a cross the city transit link. Longer or more frequent LRT runs means that the current capacity need not be reduced.

 

[Rainforest]

I agree with modifying the Sheppard subway to be used by LRT vehicles only until such time a subway extension is warranted. The cost of conversion is the cost of hanging catenary and filling the tunnel near the stations with gravel and laying tracks on top. None of which makes converting back to a subway later a big deal (remove the gravel and reconnect the old tracks). For the cost of gravel and catenary you eliminate transfers and create a cross the city transit link. Longer or more frequent LRT runs means that the current capacity need not be reduced.

I see quite a few issues stemming from such plan:

1) The inconvenience of the temporary closure.

2) Two-car LRT trains on 5-min headways is quite a downgrade in terms of capacity, compared to the present service level (4-car trains every 6 min or so), at the time when the patronage is expected to increase. Longer trains will have difficulties operating in the street-median section, whereas shorter headways will meet opposition from the Roads department. A reasonable solution would be to run a short-turn branch between Yonge and Don Mills for good combined headways, but that requires at least a 3-rd track past Don Mills.

3) We forfeit the chance to create a shortcut between the Yonge and Spadina subway lines.

4) Connecting to Finch West LRT will cost quite a bit, as about 1.5 km of tunnel will have to be built under Sheppard west of Yonge (that section is not wide enough for a surface LRT). The popularity of that crosstown link remain to be seen, as it would be relatively slow (the estimate is 37 min from Meadowvale to Don Mills, so I expect about 85 min from Meadowvale to Humber).

Moreover, the benefit of the crosstown link will be offset by the less convenient connection between Finch West LRT and Yonge subway. Instead of running to Yonge the shortest way, it will have to tilt south along Dufferin or Bathurst, before reaching Yonge at Sheppard.

 

[Rainforest]

I don't see any point in having both LRT and subway along Sheppard. Yonge and Bloor both lost their streetcars when the subway was introduced. That's why I see this Sheppard East LRT as a complete and utter waste of money. I'd rather see incremental expansion of the Sheppard subway, even if it doesn't reach STC yet. But we should be planning for it to be a major east-west subway corridor.

Exactly, this is the concern. It is technically possible to start with LRT along Sheppard, and then build a parallel subway extension at a later point. But that means a larger overall investment in this corridor, which will bring little if any extra benefit.

Incremental expansion of the Sheppard subway will be more cost-effective, both short-term and long-term. And, being incremental, it won't derail improvements along other corridors in the city.

 

[Rainforest]

I strongly support extending the subway west to Downsview. ... That extension alone would provide us with a better grid north of the 401 and allow some to transfer from Yonge to Spadina line and thereby better balancing the Yonge and Spadina ridership.

Agreed. The extension to Downsview will result in a number of network benefits.

I'm ok with Sheppard LRT east from Don Mills for now, since that will be a major LRT transfer with 3 lines: Finch, Sheppard and Don Mills + Sheppard subway.

Btw, if Sheppard subway is extended to Downsview, there will be no need to pull Finch West LRT to Don Mills.

Moreover, somebody had suggested interlining the Spadina and Sheppard services towards York U. After some thought, I see merit in this proposal. If half of downtown trains short-turn at Downsview, there will be enough room for Sheppard trains north of Downsview. The other half of downtown trains would then run all way to VCC, whereas Sheppard trains could run to Steeles West. That would create a really convenient connection from York U (likely the largest trip generator in the north-west) to the east.

Sheppard trains would need a new station (aligned E-W) at Downsview, as the existing Spadina station is aligned N-S. But west of Allen Rd., the Sheppard tracks could tilt north, and merge with the Spadina extension near Chesswood.

 

[EnviroTO]

I see quite a few issues stemming from such plan:

1) The inconvenience of the temporary closure.

Unavoidable but if they can provide bus replacement service on the other lines when there is trouble they can certainly provide it on the most unused line.

2) Two-car LRT trains on 5-min headways is quite a downgrade in terms of capacity, compared to the present service level (4-car trains every 6 min or so), at the time when the patronage is expected to increase. Longer trains will have difficulties operating in the street-median section, whereas shorter headways will meet opposition from the Roads department. A reasonable solution would be to run a short-turn branch between Yonge and Don Mills for good combined headways, but that requires at least a 3-rd track past Don Mills.

Why restrict use to 2 car LRT trains? Most modern LRTs are modular and can be made to any length. The Sheppard subway has about the same ridership as the King streetcar and King uses single car CLRVs, so doesn't it follow that a 4 car LRT train could easily handle the load on Sheppard?

3) We forfeit the chance to create a shortcut between the Yonge and Spadina subway lines.

How is it forfeit? It is made immediately possible because the LRT vehicle will continue past Yonge up to the surface to connect to Downsview and Finch West LRT.

4) Connecting to Finch West LRT will cost quite a bit, as about 1.5 km of tunnel will have to be built under Sheppard west of Yonge (that section is not wide enough for a surface LRT).

There will be savings at Yonge and Finch and at Don Mills because the Finch West LRT will no longer need to connect there. That money can be used to bring the LRT to the surface west of Yonge. Finch also has ROW width issues near Yonge.

Moreover, the benefit of the crosstown link will be offset by the less convenient connection between Finch West LRT and Yonge subway. Instead of running to Yonge the shortest way, it will have to tilt south along Dufferin or Bathurst, before reaching Yonge at Sheppard.

This is only an inconvenience for those who are heading north from Finch West. For those heading east on Sheppard there is no need for transfer and for those heading south there will have been no change in total distance traveled.

 

[Rainforest]

Why restrict use to 2 car LRT trains? Most modern LRTs are modular and can be made to any length. The Sheppard subway has about the same ridership as the King streetcar and King uses single car CLRVs, so doesn't it follow that a 4 car LRT train could easily handle the load on Sheppard?

4 car trains certainly can handle the load in the tunneled section. But how will they operate in the street-median section?

How is it forfeit? It is made immediately possible because the LRT vehicle will continue past Yonge up to the surface to connect to Downsview and Finch West LRT.

But that means no option to move subway trains from Wilson yard to Yonge line.

There will be savings at Yonge and Finch and at Don Mills because the Finch West LRT will no longer need to connect there. That money can be used to bring the LRT to the surface west of Yonge. Finch also has ROW width issues near Yonge.

Either of the discussed connections between Finch West and Sheppard East light rail lines - via Finch East and Don Mills, or via Sheppard subway tunnel - will cost quite a bit extra, compared to the original Transit City proposal.

This is only an inconvenience for those who are heading north from Finch West. For those heading east on Sheppard there is no need for transfer and for those heading south there will have been no change in total distance traveled.

OK: no much difference for those heading south along Yonge; slightly more convenient for those heading east; less convenient for those heading north (or east along Finch). But are we sure that the second group is larger than the third group? Meanwhile, the extra cost of linking Finch West and Sheppard East is not trivial.

 

[Dan416]

I really think trying to link Finch West with Sheppard East is pretty futile. It would be like trying to run rapid transit along Britannia West and then Derry East. What would it accomplish, exactly?

Let Finch be an LRT (east and west) and Sheppard to be a subway corridor (east and west) and leave it at that. We already have a subway on Sheppard, we might as well utilize it. We spent billions of dollars on it already after all. Downgrading it isn't an efficient use of funds.

 

[nfitz]

I don't see any point in having both LRT and subway along Sheppard. Yonge and Bloor both lost their streetcars when the subway was introduced.

Yonge and Bloor both have stations every 400 to 500 metres, where the streetcar service used to be. If you build stations every 2 to 4 km then you need surface transportation as well.

 

[SunriseChampion]

MTown,

I only support a conversion if the city is going to push through the LRT regardless. I'd prefer to see the subway finished. Instead, transfers are now going to rule the day and there will be no extension westward past Yonge. If that's going to be the case, I'd like to see the whole line run with LRT. There will be enough capacity to service Sheppard, with LRT, for decades to come. Even the HRT ridership estimate for Sheppard is still below the Scarborough RT (and that's likely going to be going to LRT in the future). So it's not so much a downgrade as a better match of capacity and demand. That being said, I support a subway to STC so that we can finish building the subway network and have speedy travel across the city. LRT does not provide that. It'll only be marginally faster than a bus. And with the transfer it might work out slower. Getting rid of the transfer, imho, is the only way to make LRT marginally palatable.

I'm going to agree with you that seeing a transfer-less corridor is the best option but that does not make proceeding with LRT in this corridor the right choice.

I've said it before in this thread: I avoid transfers like the plague (I take the GO train from Guildwood to Union instead of taking a bus and two subway trains, for example) and I'm all for a seamless transit corridor but going about it the wrong way is still going about it the wrong way.

Maybe Transit City will be revised in short order and we'll get something a little more sensical out of it.


I suppose though, if they absolutely must proceed with LRT across Sheppard, they should make it seamless. There, I said it.

 

[Dan416]

But if they did that, they would have to remove Sheppard from the subway maps. And that would be a shame after the TTC spent all these years making new ones with Sheppard on them.

 

[nfitz]

?????

The maps are updated frequently, given the changes to the parking status, handicapped access, and even the upcoming extension(s) to the YUS line.

 

[Ansem]

Sheppard LRT is political. So you guys are ready to settle for less because of some administration willing to secure their mandate renewal by securing Scarborough votes?

Beside the RT, what does scarborough have? But removing or not completing the Sheppard subway is a shame to the city. So to get Scarborough (so they think) they are willing to remove North York's subway line. Oh right they already have the YUS anyways and since Scarborough had nothing to begin with they have to vote for us...Get it?

Its no coincidence he's pushing the LRT line. We are near an election year and he needs to prove Scarborough that he's done something for them...

Why should we settle for less to please some individual quest to remain in power? I've worked long enough for a municipal entity to know how it works.

Basic common sense would want the sheppard line to look like this:

How do you expect your leaders to see the bigger picture if everytime your ready to settle for less than you deserve? Right...we beat Montreal metro by 3 Km...

The TTC is the 3rd public transportation company in North America. We are the 4th or 5th city in North America. Isn't it time we demand they behave like one? A good start is to reject the Sheppard LRT.

Sure LRT is a good idea. Will it really kill you if we drop Jane LRT?

1-Does anyone believes Transit city numbers? They already said it would be more expensive than expected and it will only get worse.

2-Digging underground from Wilson to Jane Station will cost a fortune. Make no mistake about it, It will be very expensive. Wilson to bloor is like digging the yonge line all over again. Why don't they built an express tunnel on Yonge while they're at it?

So instead of talking non sense about converting Sheppard into a LRT, we should explore other scenarios. If financing is the problem, Dropping Jane is a good start to find the money.

Combining the funds of building Jane and Sheppard east LRT would almost finish the line if not complete it.

It makes more sense to later build a LRT east of agincourt. The bus routes will be shorter if the subway is complete and the network will be more efficient.

Jane is too close to the Future Steeles West station and the Spadina line. If it was Kipling or Islington LRT, you would have a point but Jane???

Toronto needs a fast nothern crosstown since it connects 2 town centers together.

 

[nfitz]

Basic common sense would want the sheppard line to look like this.

Fortunately budget decisions are not made on wants, but on needs and availabity of funds. Wants has nothing to do with it.

Right...we beat Montreal metro by 3 Km...

Beat? What, you think it's some kind of contest? Let's be serious now ...

 

[Ansem]

Fortunately budget decisions are not made on wants, but on needs and availabity of funds. Wants has nothing to do with it.

The funds are there. They are just invested in wrong places...
Jane LRT
Sheppard East LRT
YUS expension beyond Steeles

Beat? What, you think it's some kind of contest? Let's be serious now ...

Not a contest:

Justify that a 1.8 million city have a subway network that's only 3 KM less than a 2.8 Million city. Besides ''Plateau Mont-Royal'' we have a bigger density in many parts of the city than Montreal and yet they don't have rapid transit.

For a city that wants to be international...it's pretty lame.
and for what?

It's not about funds. Miller and his team could have requested Sheppard to be part of the infrastructure wishlist and to my understanding, the EA for Sheppard subway is done (correct me if I'm wrong).

So, no. I won't agree to a project that is politically motivated.