News   Jul 12, 2024
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Toronto's Transit Network Plan

On the King vs Queen debate, I think something many 'King-advocates' are missing here is pedestrian flows.

A King Street alignment would be an absolute disaster for pedestrian flows as you will have a ton of people exiting the Yonge Subway, the Relief Line and Union Station all going in all directions against each other. A Queen Street alignment disperses the pedestrian flow in logical directions while providing little loss ridership wise.
 
On the King vs Queen debate, I think something many 'King-advocates' are missing here is pedestrian flows.

A King Street alignment would be an absolute disaster for pedestrian flows as you will have a ton of people exiting the Yonge Subway, the Relief Line and Union Station all going in all directions against each other. A Queen Street alignment disperses the pedestrian flow in logical directions while providing little loss ridership wise.

That may be the case (and it's certainly a very important point), but Steve Munro says that the preferred alignment was a "political decision, plain and simple, to avoid problems with SmartTrack and Relief Line co-existence". He feels that the "fix was in for the Pape to Queen alignment, and the arguments were made to favour that choice".


This evaluation, like so much other recent work, depends very much on the presumed presence of frequent SmartTrack service in the rail corridor. If that is found to be impractical, then the relative importance of the RL changes along with its appropriate alignment to serve the core. This is particularly critical at the Unilever site which would have only SmartTrack serving it if the RL stays on Queen Street. If SmartTrack cannot be provided on a five minute headway with a low fare, then the entire planning process will require a major rethink.

What is astoundingly annoying about the “preferred” route is that it ignores many factors like this and seems, primarily, to be avoiding conflict with the Mayor’s SmartTrack scheme. the sooner Metrolinx torpedoes the idea of very frequent ST service, the better. We can then get on to planning a network based on what can actually be accomplished rather than left over election literature and consultants whose are long past their sell-by dates

I think City planners are desperately avoiding this issue because it has the potential to completely derail the Mayor’s signature plan. Losing the Eglinton West airport spur was a blow, but it was rationalized as the adoption of a better solution. However, if the frequent SmartTrack service does not pan out, the entire scheme is dead in the water.

Sumach is an odd choice, but it ties in with the idea that a more northerly subway (Queen) serves Regent Park. The rationale for both the alignment choice and the station locations is forced.

Bluntly, I think the evaluation has been cooked to keep the RL out of the way of SmartTrack.

http://stevemunro.ca/2016/02/24/where-should-a-relief-line-east-go/
 
I agree. There's very little evidence for the pedestrian flow argument, and it could be mitigated through the design of the stations, and using Adelaide or Wellington instead is another option.
 
I agree. There's very little evidence for the pedestrian flow argument, and it could be mitigated through the design of the stations, and using Adelaide or Wellington instead is another option.

Having the tunnels under Adelaide would still consider it to be "under" Queen. The tunnels under Bloor and Danforth are in the most part not under Bloor and Danforth. Stairs and escalators would bring passengers to Queen, since they are diagonal.
 
On the King vs Queen debate, I think something many 'King-advocates' are missing here is pedestrian flows.

A King Street alignment would be an absolute disaster for pedestrian flows as you will have a ton of people exiting the Yonge Subway, the Relief Line and Union Station all going in all directions against each other. A Queen Street alignment disperses the pedestrian flow in logical directions while providing little loss ridership wise.

Replace that "disaster" scenario with the actual disaster of having every single last person exiting and walking south against all of that traffic anyway and at the cost of up to 25% lost ridership. Sign me up!
 
Replace that "disaster" scenario with the actual disaster of having every single last person exiting and walking south against all of that traffic anyway and at the cost of up to 25% lost ridership. Sign me up!
They wouldn't be walking "against all of that traffic anyway" because (assuming the destination is the financial district) they would terminate in the financial district from the north while Yonge/University/Union alightings would terminate in the financial district from the south.

I think it would be worthwhile to include the construction of a new PATH tunnel south from an NPS station on the Relief Line down Bay Street towards the Financial District as part of the Relief Line project.
 
I agree. There's very little evidence for the pedestrian flow argument, and it could be mitigated through the design of the stations, and using Adelaide or Wellington instead is another option.

Beyond pedestrian flow, the Relief Line along queen delivers rapid transit to a greater percentage of downtown and makes a westward extension easier.
 
Exactly and besides which Queen would be MUCH easier and cheaper to build because Queen already has a partial station built, Osgoode has all the underground servicing removed, and tunneling under the massive PATH network along Kinbg would cause a King's ransom and would have to very deep as well.
 
They wouldn't be walking "against all of that traffic anyway" because (assuming the destination is the financial district) they would terminate in the financial district from the north while Yonge/University/Union alightings would terminate in the financial district from the south.

I think it would be worthwhile to include the construction of a new PATH tunnel south from an NPS station on the Relief Line down Bay Street towards the Financial District as part of the Relief Line project.

If they all terminate in the financial district then there's no conflict at all so the planning department is out to lunch. If you need to build a new 500m PATH as a workaround it's a sign that you've already made a mistake. We need a FOIA request on Tory's office to see how deep he has his fingers in the pie.
 
That may be the case (and it's certainly a very important point), but Steve Munro says that the preferred alignment was a "political decision, plain and simple, to avoid problems with SmartTrack and Relief Line co-existence". He feels that the "fix was in for the Pape to Queen alignment, and the arguments were made to favour that choice".












http://stevemunro.ca/2016/02/24/where-should-a-relief-line-east-go/
A more persuasive post would have been explaining why you agree with Steve Munro rather than just quoting him. I've often wondered why people take his word as gospel. There's nothing special about his opinion. Sure he's well informed, but at the end of the day he's just a guy with a blog.

In any case, not competing directly with RER (which is what Smarttrack is, let's face it) is exactly what a new subway line should be designed to do. Subways are supposed to be about serving highly dense parts of the city that can't be served by existing rail corridors, and that's what a Queen alignment does well.

Replace that "disaster" scenario with the actual disaster of having every single last person exiting and walking south against all of that traffic anyway and at the cost of up to 25% lost ridership. Sign me up!
Every single person? There are many thousands of people who live, work, and play north of Queen Street. There's more to downtown than the financial district.
 
A more persuasive post would have been explaining why you agree with Steve Munro rather than just quoting him. I've often wondered why people take his word as gospel. There's nothing special about his opinion. Sure he's well informed, but at the end of the day he's just a guy with a blog.

Steve has earned a high degree of credibility and respect over the years. He also has insider connections with people city hall, TTC and Metrolinx. He is not always 100% right about everything, but look at his criticism of UP Express for example. Since the very beginning he has been raising issues with the fare structure, business model and assumptions. They didn't listen, so when the train inevitably failed Metrolinx had to make some major changes, most of which Steve was advocating for all along.

As to why I agree with him that the preferred DRL alignment has a lot to do with SmartTrack, this city has a long history of pursuing political transit projects and cocking up the numbers or planning rationale in order to justify it. SmartTrack is the latest politically driven pet project, so lets look at what it did to the Scarborough subway.
- There was concern that ST and the subway would cannibalize each other.
- Some of the most cockaiminie alignments were being seriously considered (such as Bellamy Rd) so that the subway would be farther away from ST.
- When that didn't work, they shortened the subway and eliminated all but one stop. A drastically different outcome as a result of ST.
- The mayor and chief planner have recently downplayed the importance of ridership in transit planning. Later the new numbers came out. Surprise surprise, the subway ridership is substantially lower than the numbers that council used to approve it in the first place.
- The planner is also now touting the "build it and they will come" ideology, saying that the subway will spur development and create jobs in Scarborough Centre. That didn't happen in other suburban centres and a number of other unsuccessful development areas, so what makes them expect a better outcome this time around? I believe that she knows better than this, but her hands are tied. She can't question the need for a subway in the first place (for obvious political reasons), so these arguments seem forced.


Therefore I would not at all be surprised if the same chief planner and city staff have also gerrymandered the relief line because of SmartTrack. The evaluation criteria said that the King alignment would have the highest ridership, the highest population and employment density, greatest development potential, greatest streetcar relief, and would best support city growth. That's pretty darn important, but King was rejected. I have some problems with a few of the excuses as to why Queen is preferred.
- It is cheaper.
- Social equity. Because it would serve Moss Park, Regent Park (sort of), has better access to community centres. But these neighbourhoods are not as densely populated.
- Opportunity to create a grand station in front of city hall. A nice little vanity project at the expense of user friendliness, unless you enjoy the long pedestrian tunnel at Spadina station.
- Serves more destinations (hospitals, universities, shopping), many of which are a considerable walk away from Queen and are already well served by Line 1. But this argument and its narrow focus on the small handful of city blocks in the downtown core ignores all the destinations that a King alignment would serve outside this area. What about the Entertainment District, Convention Centre, Roy Thompson Hall, Liberty Village, St Lawrence, or Distillery District for example? I would argue that there are more destinations along King rather than Queen, but the spokespeople at the public meeting are only looking at the downtown core when they say Queen would serve more destinations. Are they being disingenuous?
- More street life in the evening around Queen St compared to the financial district, which would supposedly boost evening ridership. I don't know why this is even a consideration. An interchange station will have high usage no matter where it goes. Meanwhile a station at Moss Park will certainly not be very busy in the evening compared to a station near St Lawrence.

I think the mayor and planners owe us an explanation as to the degree on influence that SmartTrack has had on the relief line.


In any case, not competing directly with RER (which is what Smarttrack is, let's face it) is exactly what a new subway line should be designed to do. Subways are supposed to be about serving highly dense parts of the city that can't be served by existing rail corridors, and that's what a Queen alignment does well.

If SmartTrack doesn't pan out as promised, if it won't have low fares, if it won't have frequency subway-like service, if it won't have as many stations as was promised, then this whole planning process in which the two lines must be kept away from each other will fall apart. The EA for the relief line will begin in only a few months and yet no one knows what SmartTrack will ultimately look like. We may not even get a subway station at the Unilever site because SmartTrack is assumed to be good enough. It's time that we get real and throw out the recycled election campaign literature.
 
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On the King vs Queen debate, I think something many 'King-advocates' are missing here is pedestrian flows.

A King Street alignment would be an absolute disaster for pedestrian flows as you will have a ton of people exiting the Yonge Subway, the Relief Line and Union Station all going in all directions against each other. A Queen Street alignment disperses the pedestrian flow in logical directions while providing little loss ridership wise.

You are right. Queen would allow for easier pedestrian flows...there would only be 1/2 or 1/3 the number of riders as King! :)
 
^^Smarttrack may be a back-of-the-napkin election promise, but RER isn't. It's something Metrolinx has been working towards a long time, even if the plan became more ambitious later on. That's why Smarttrack seems to be more and more likely to be rolled into the RER system (same with UPX actually). Building a subway near a rail corridor on the off chance that that rail corridor will never be upgraded to RER seems like a pretty poor way to plan transit. Besides, fare integration and frequent RER service is more likely than the DRL at this point anyway. It's easier to upgrade existing infrastructure than to build a whole new line.

I don't buy the argument that the Queen alignment was to avoid problems with SmartTrack. The two lines serve very different markets.
Not necessarily. An RER line can be just as effective for short trips as a subway. Let's assume that RER has frequent service and integrated fares. Then if it and the subway follow up the same route, someone travelling across downtown will be just as likely to take RER/Smarttrack as the subway. You end up with two lines that duplicate each other. By making the two lines serve different areas, you get better rapid transit coverage and the line people take will depend on where people are going.
 
The lower cost and increased destinations are good points and I'd argue that Queen has more development potential right now as more parts of King have been redeveloped lately. Not that King can't see further development but Queen definitely has more opportunities for growth than King imo.

Then wouldn't it make more sense to serve the areas that have already developed as opposed to the areas that might if a subway was put there? "Oh you've already densified? Ok, we'll put the subway over here then" doesn't really make much sense. Bloor-Danforth also has tonnes of densification opportunities since it's mostly low-rise mixed use. Maybe we should put a subway there? :)
 

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