Toronto's hidden rivers

[41stfloor]

The water may well be old, but if so, it's stagnant, and barely moving. Water does not flow from Georgian Bay to Lake Ontario through groundwater. There is a flow divide, both in the overburden, and the bedrock.

Millions of years seems to be a bit of a stretch though. I'd be surprised if it dates to before the Illinoian stage, which only ended 130,000 years ago. Do you have a reference for this?

Also, I don't know how it would be that deep in the bedrock - surely it wouldn't be in the Precambrian?

Among other sources, check out the lost rivers link I provided above and the book I have referred to a couple of times above. The essay "High Park Waterways: Forward to the Past" by Jane Schmidt and Frank Remiz is quite instructive. You can also conduct your own internet and library research, just as I have done.

Like any old bedrock acquifer, the water is not stagnant. It is filtered after flowing for many, many years underground. The only "impurities" are excess minerals (mostly iron), not bacteria. The water does not flow from Georgian Bay, it flows from the Georgian Bay area.

 

[41stfloor]

Apparently, the Jane Creek flows underground into the Humber, from just near north-east of the corner of Jane Street and Bloor Street West. The southern portion of the St. Pius X school yard covers it now. I once saw a map that showed the original Jane Creek, but can't locate it online now.

Yes, I have in a book a very small hard copy of a map that shows the old route. The historic path of the creek starts two blocks east of Jane north of Bloor and generally follows the bend of Bloor until it reaches the Humber.

 

[nfitz]

. The water does not flow from Georgian Bay, it flows from the Georgian Bay area.

Water does not flow from the Georgian Bay area. If you read real, technical references, rather than the kind of pseudo-science media articles you've referenced, you can see this. Groundwater does not flow north to south across the Oak Ridges Moraine. This has been extensively documetned.

Any groundwater that has taken a million years to travel a few hundred kilometres, is, by any definition, virtually stagnant.

 

[41stfloor]

Water does not flow from the Georgian Bay area. If you read real, technical references, rather than the kind of pseudo-science media articles you've referenced, you can see this. Groundwater does not flow north to south across the Oak Ridges Moraine. This has been extensively documetned.

Hmm. Technical references as opposed to more readable sources. A novel concept. Well, if that's your preference, you can always take a look at:

http://apps1.gdr.nrcan.gc.ca/mirage/show_image_e.php

http://gsc.nrcan.gc.ca/hydrogeo/orm/pdf/bedrock_doc.pdf

http://www.isgs.uiuc.edu/research/3DWorkshop/2004/pdf-files/sharpe_abs.pdf

http://www.isgs.illinois.edu/research/3DWorkshop/2004/pdf-files/logan_abs.pdf

I think the authors of these papers, maps and figures from the Geological Survey of Canada may disagree with you - the bedrock topography clearly shows a channel running north to south with an incline to the south all the way from the Georgian Bay area to Toronto and running through the oak ridges moraine.

And here is the original Toronto Star article (more pseudo-whatever you want to call it, if you're so inclined), but it does tell the story a bit better than I have and it also has yet another nice graphic of the bedrock channel that is the remainder of the Laurentian River:

http://www.ypdt-camc.ca/Portals/2/doc/Toronto Star Scanned Sept 18 2003.pdf

 

[nfitz]

Hmm. Technical references as opposed to more readable sources. A novel concept. Well, if that's your preference, you can always take a look at:

http://apps1.gdr.nrcan.gc.ca/mirage/show_image_e.php

http://gsc.nrcan.gc.ca/hydrogeo/orm/pdf/bedrock_doc.pdf

http://www.isgs.uiuc.edu/research/3DWorkshop/2004/pdf-files/sharpe_abs.pdf

http://www.isgs.illinois.edu/research/3DWorkshop/2004/pdf-files/logan_abs.pdf

I don't know what the first reference is supposed to point to. It simply points to the portal to the Mirage database. The second is on topography, and speaks nothing to pressures and flow directions. The third is a well known paper, again not pressures. The fourth is on a database. I have been familiar with these papers for many years, and even some of the authors. There is nothing in any of these references that discuss flow directions. I'm afraid you are confusing stratigraphy and hydrostratigraphy.

I think the authors of these papers, maps and figures from the Geological Survey of Canada may disagree with you - the bedrock topography clearly shows a channel running north to south with an incline to the south all the way from the Georgian Bay area to Toronto and running through the
oak ridges moraine.

There is certainly a channel - the Laurentian Channel is well know, and well documented. But if you look at the groundwater elevations in that channel - the pressures, you can see that groundwater doesn't flow from Georgian Bay to Lake Ontario - not these days anyways. At the end of the last ice age, 20-thousand years ago before uplift had occurred, there would have been a pressure gradient from Georgian Bay to Lake Ontario, but that is not the case today. Conceivably, water that entered the system 20,000 years ago at Georgian Bay could still be in the ground and could get to Lake Ontario, but it would have had to have been south of the flow divide when the ground surface raised up. Water in Georgian Bay today, doesn't flow down this channel to Lake Ontario.

And here is the original Toronto Star article (more pseudo-whatever you want to call it, if you're so inclined), but it does tell the story a bit better than I have and it also has yet another nice graphic of the bedrock channel that is the remainder of the Laurentian River:

You mentioned water that is millions of years old, but from what I see in the article, it talks of water from the last ice age, which only ended 20,000 or so years ago.

The use of the words river and stream in that newspaper article aren't technically correct. An underground river or stream, naturally, is one that flows in a cave system; there is very like this in southern Ontario. Water that flows in the Laurentian channel is simply called groundwater, and the channel itself would be an aquifer. In the context if this thread, originally, underground river was referring to streams and rivers that had been replaced by sewers, etc.

 

[Dugmor]

There's some sort of tributary by my house, just off of Brookbanks in the Parkwoods area. I assume it's part of Deerlick Creek which runs through the ravine.

 

[41stfloor]

There's some sort of tributary by my house, just off of Brookbanks in the Parkwoods area. I assume it's part of Deerlick Creek which runs through the ravine.

Is Deerlick Creek the creek that runs into the east branch of the Don just north of Lawrence at the Donalda gold club? I just looked it up and I there does appear to be a least one minor tributary into it. Is the flow in the tributary seasonal?

 

[Dugmor]

Is Deerlick Creek the creek that runs into the east branch of the Don just north of Lawrence at the Donalda gold club? I just looked it up and I there does appear to be a least one minor tributary into it. Is the flow in the tributary seasonal?

Yes, that is it. It's located in my neighbourhood (Parkwoods). Go into Google Maps or Google Earth and type in: Parkwoods Toronto. That stream is located just north of Overbank Crescent, off Broadlands Dr. Deerlick Creek runs all throughout the ravines in that area, north and south of Broadlands and west into the Donalda Golf Course. The water level depends on the amount of rain. Sometimes it's high, sometimes it can be quite low. If you go a little further south west from the tributary, into the ravine south of Broadlands and follow the creek it will eventually take you to the DVP where there are tunnels that you can crouch through and they'll take you to the the western side of the DVP and into Donalda. If you're the adventurous type it's a really enjoyable walk. See images below.

 

[Dugmor]

There's another one of these streams on the northern edge of the ravine at York Mills & Fenside. It extends a couple blocks north and south underneath York Mills into Deerlick.

 

[karyn klaire koski]

Skylighting of Spring Creek?

The sink in on Parkside Drive, just south of the Nature Centre could have been caused by poor stewardship of private lands that feed into this hidden river or just as a factor of time. Archived maps show how the ravine extended east into an area that was once subdivided from a street called Park Place, then renamed Indian Valley Crescent. At the intersection of Indian Grove and Indian Valley Crescent > former marshland was filled in. Several houses along Indian Grove are tilted because of the still present water reservoirs below them, and several sink ins have happened under the roadways because the underground waters and deteriorating waterways systems.

There was once was a resident (Professor Elwood S Moore - U of T!)who fought to not have a laneway put in to service all the southside houses flanking Indian Valley Crescent because of a creek bed. He was a famous geologist and had an understanding of what could possibly happen. The City of Toronto never put in the lane, but a few neighbours had> (because there was a deeded right of way, and they did not "understand" that loss of vegetation could put stress on the lands, sadly greed is a more powerful G word then green.

In 2005 an unpermitted paving was reported on the ravine area, and it's non-porous surface contributed to a stressed surface drain that channeled the waterways. During the spring of 2007, a backyard surface drain (on private land) clogged then burped, perhaps indicating a serious drain problem. Then reportedly, a new sink on Indian Valley Crescent, two residential floodings along Indian Valley Crescent and then the sink in along Parkside drive.
The water tests of the surface water in the High Park ravine, now exposed, show no chemical (so it is not City Water), and no contaminates (so it is not sewage) Perhaps a hidden river is skylighting afterall.