Toronto YZD | ?m | ?s | Northcrest Developments | KPMB

[aquateam]

To be fair, I could be wrong. Maybe GTAA is able to balance their flight test needs in its normal flying schedules. They do build planes at Dorval and make that work. Just that this seems challenging at first blush to me.

But do they test them there? I remember when they were broadcasting the first C-Series flight it was out of Mirabel.

 

[smallspy]

But do they test them there? I remember when they were broadcasting the first C-Series flight it was out of Mirabel.

The C-Series is built at Mirabel. But they still build Q400s and the Global Express business jets at Downsview. It's not uncommon to hear them do engine run-ups and testing in the evenings.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Because maybe your skilled workforce doesn't live there? Move that far, maybe you move out of province.

A billion dollar land sale can pay for a lot of skilled employee relocation costs, or a lot of long term 407 transponders to be handed out to employees.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Also, I find this land sale fascinating. It's 1.5 square kilometres of developable land sitting dead in the centre of Toronto with easy subway and highway access. It's an incredible opportunity. There is no other chunk of land like it, and the existing use is a vast underutilization of the land. I look forward to it getting redeveloped. I could easily see over 50,000 people living here.

It's almost unfortunate that Bombardier is moving to redevelop now, after the city has spent 10 years creating a development plan around it to accomodate the airport. The whole Downsview secondary plan is entirely based on the premise that the airport will not be closing - if it does, it turns the whole plan on its head.

I hope they plan to straighten Sheppard through the airport lands - the gigantic bypass around it adds a lot of travel time. Also, potentially another GO station at Wilson Road on the Barrie line to service this?

 

[aquateam]

The C-Series is built at Mirabel. But they still build Q400s and the Global Express business jets at Downsview. It's not uncommon to hear them do engine run-ups and testing in the evenings.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Yeah, but my point is that, to my knowledge, they don't use Dorval, Montreal's main airport, for flight testing. There's two lower traffic airports, St. Hubert and Mirabel, which are better suited to that.

Also, I find this land sale fascinating. It's 1.5 square kilometres of developable land sitting dead in the centre of Toronto with easy subway and highway access. It's an incredible opportunity. There is no other chunk of land like it, and the existing use is a vast underutilization of the land. I look forward to it getting redeveloped. I could easily see over 50,000 people living here.

It's almost unfortunate that Bombardier is moving to redevelop now, after the city has spent 10 years creating a development plan around it to accomodate the airport. The whole Downsview secondary plan is entirely based on the premise that the airport will not be closing - if it does, it turns the whole plan on its head.

I hope they plan to straighten Sheppard through the airport lands - the gigantic bypass around it adds a lot of travel time. Also, potentially another GO station at Wilson Road on the Barrie line to service this?

With a functioning airport, there was a rationale to restricting development (flight paths, noise, etc.) With that gone, I hope the whole area gets developed as densely as possible to take advantage of all the subway access (and the Pasternak extension which is now on Metrolinx's agenda.)

 

[Northern Light]

Yeah, but my point is that, to my knowledge, they don't use Dorval, Montreal's main airport, for flight testing. There's two lower traffic airports, St. Hubert and Mirabel, which are better suited to that.



With a functioning airport, there was a rationale to restricting development (flight paths, noise, etc.) With that gone, I hope the whole area gets developed as densely as possible to take advantage of all the subway access (and the Pasternak extension which is now on Metrolinx's agenda.)

On balance, I would prefer to see high-skill, high-value manufacturing remain on this site.

That said, if the airport function is to be removed, the opportunity to fix the mess that is Dufferin in this area is enormous.

However, Allan Rd/Expressway would likely need to be addressed at the same time, at least in part given the existing road arrangement.

The advantages for motorists, pedestrians, cyclists and transit users are all there, and if only one 'straitening' occurred, I would argue for Dufferin over Sheppard. Not least, because Downsview Park Station has been sited on the top of the Sheppard curve, and moving Sheppard would pose real challenges as a result.

You could curve Sheppard further south, and make the station entrance from the south; but that's a great deal of money for a not so great gain.

 

[innsertnamehere]

rezoning the site could provide much more economic value than a few thousand bombardier jobs currently provide. I believe there are about 5,000 employees here currently - that is about a million square feet of office space's employment value. Stick a few office buildings around the subway and you have an equivilant employment density.

Also, at 150 acres, that is a meager 33 jobs a hectare. The provincial greenfield minimum is 80 people and jobs a hectare, and redevelopment can probably push that up past 200.

There is no need for Downsview park to be immediately on Sheppard. The existing Sheppard alignment would likely be retained primarily in it's existing form, it would just become more of a local arterial.

 

[steveintoronto]

IIRC, the City has projected rezoning *most* of the land, where there's no buildings at this time. The SW corner is to remain Employment categories. Bombardier's present facilities will be snapped up, and a good part of that is due to the rail spur on the west side.

 

[lenaitch]

If it comes to pass, it will be condos with some retail, minimal if any employment land beyond retail. That's the history of Toronto redevelopment.

Manufacturing anything takes space. The current BBD plant has a mostly highly skilled and well paid payroll, but it is mostly blue collar. Toronto doesn't want that - not world-classy enough. Better to have workers in cubicles staring at a screen sipping on a Starbucks.

I don't know if Hamilton is even on the table, but I find the sentiment that workers would be unwilling to move to retain a well-paid career a rather troubling comment on society.

 

[BurlOak]

If it comes to pass, it will be condos with some retail, minimal if any employment land beyond retail. That's the history of Toronto redevelopment.

Manufacturing anything takes space. The current BBD plant has a mostly highly skilled and well paid payroll, but it is mostly blue collar. Toronto doesn't want that - not world-classy enough. Better to have workers in cubicles staring at a screen sipping on a Starbucks.

I don't know if Hamilton is even on the table, but I find the sentiment that workers would be unwilling to move to retain a well-paid career a rather troubling comment on society.

Agreed - although if 2 incomes are needed for a family, it may be hard for the other spouse to find a job in Hamilton.
Back in the 50's or 60's, taxes were low enough that families could live with a single income earner - much easier to relocate then.

 

[steveintoronto]

Some review:

OLIVER MOORE
URBAN TRANSPORTATION REPORTER
TORONTO
PUBLISHED JANUARY 12, 2018
[...]
"The Mayor's office is aware of Bombardier's plans to shift production away from Downsview," spokesman Don Peat said in a statement.

"We have been in discussions with the provincial and federal governments as to how to protect – and even grow – jobs at Downsview and protect public investments made there over the years."

The local councillor has warned the company that the city would not stand idly by if Bombardier struck a deal with a developer.

"We are committed to doing everything possible to protect our employment lands as they are an integral component to the City's success," Councillor Maria Augimeri wrote recently in a letter to Bombardier CEO Alain Bellemare and a number of politicians. A copy of the letter was obtained by The Globe and Mail.

Rezoning is a politically fraught process. Under the provincial growth plan, Toronto has a city-wide target for jobs and people per hectare. If the city wants to rezone an employment site, it has to demonstrate that doing so will not prevent it from meeting its citywide target.

Mr. Marcil pointed to the increasing density around the Downsview site and the transportation links that have been built, including infrastructure such as a brand-new subway stop, suggesting that some form of mixed-use development could fit there.


"It may make sense from a societal standpoint to use that property for uses other than aircraft manufacturing and testing," said David Tyerman, an analyst with Cormark Securities in Toronto, noting that the land is likely fairly valuable if Bombardier can find a buyer other than the government.

"They're trying to get the cost structure of the company down and [consolidating production at another site] might be a logical way of doing that."

Production at the Downsview site is dedicated to the Q400 turboprop and jets from the group of aircraft dubbed the "Global family." The site employs about 3,500 people and has a runway but is, Mr. Marcil said, far bigger than the company needs. He noted that the company requires access to a runway for operations but doesn't need to own it. [...]

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...or-downsview-site-in-toronto/article37591850/

 

[lenaitch]

You could. But that adds more risk and cost.

Basically, flight testing works with envelope expansion. First flight is just a circuit, low speed, gear down. Next flight, gear up, bit faster, near pressurization altitude. Next flight, climb closer to cruise. Etc.

So now, it's first flight on a frame, I have to depart Pearson and fly all the way to Hamilton, while below 10 000 feet with my gear down and if I have any issues, I will now ground the frame at Hamilton till a recovery crew gets there. Operationally, this sounds like a nightmare to manage. They would be better off just relocating to Hamilton.

To be fair, I could be wrong. Maybe GTAA is able to balance their flight test needs in its normal flying schedules. They do build planes at Dorval and make that work. Just that this seems challenging at first blush to me.

Is there a need for any controlled or restricted airspace at this level? I know there is an area N/E of the North Bay airport that may have been left over from CAF days that BBD used when they built the CL-215/415 there but it might have been because of the more specialized nature of those aircraft.

It would seem that it would make more sense to re-locate to a place that offered the potential to grow your business activity rather than being potentially restricted by an increasingly busy and restricted environment.

 

[lenaitch]

Agreed - although if 2 incomes are needed for a family, it may be hard for the other spouse to find a job in Hamilton.
Back in the 50's or 60's, taxes were low enough that families could live with a single income earner - much easier to relocate then.

Possibly, although residential prices within an easy commute of the Hamilton airport make living on one income much easier. Agree that if it is two careers versus just two jobs, a relocation gets tougher. Many of the aircraft assembly trades are not easily transferable - if it were between moving and becoming unemployed, I know what my decision would be.

 

[TOareaFan]

Just build a new plant here

 

[innsertnamehere]

Or Oshawa, or Burlington. All of them have runways that are about half the size of Downsview though.. probably going to need some work to get it up to snuff.