Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[WislaHD]

How is the suggestion of adding stations to the Richmond Hill line at all nutty?

Ever since the new year the DRL thread on here has had extensive discussion on adding new stations on the RH line. Notably at River/Bayview-Queen (Interchange with DRL), Don Mills-Eglinton (Interchange with Crosstown), and moving Oriole GO north of the 401 (Interchange with Sheppard). The only impossibility is a connection to the Bloor line for obvious geographic reasons.

It has been discussed in tandem with a DRL tunnel on Don Mills or a proposed second SmartTrack line on the RH-RER line that would also require a tunnel under Don Mills. The idea being to use the tunnel and then connect back to the surface rail line north of Lawrence. Metrolynx is looking IIRC at what can be done to the Richmond Hill alignment near the Don River amidst concerns of flooding and railtrack sinkage, sharing the DRL tunnel would alleviate concerns, increase tunnel frequency and very likely provide for a quicker trip.

 

[dunkalunk]

How is the suggestion of adding stations to the Richmond Hill line at all nutty?

Ever since the new year the DRL thread on here has had extensive discussion on adding new stations on the RH line. Notably at River/Bayview-Queen (Interchange with DRL), Don Mills-Eglinton (Interchange with Crosstown), and moving Oriole GO north of the 401 (Interchange with Sheppard). The only impossibility is a connection to the Bloor line for obvious geographic reasons.

It has been discussed in tandem with a DRL tunnel on Don Mills or a proposed second SmartTrack line on the RH-RER line that would also require a tunnel under Don Mills. The idea being to use the tunnel and then connect back to the surface rail line north of Lawrence. Metrolynx is looking IIRC at what can be done to the Richmond Hill alignment near the Don River amidst concerns of flooding and railtrack sinkage, sharing the DRL tunnel would alleviate concerns, increase tunnel frequency and very likely provide for a quicker trip.

The idea of adding stations to the RH line's existing alignment south of Don Mills I agree is ludicrous. There's nowhere reasonable to add stations. However, there's plenty that can be done North of Eglinton even with the existing alignment, such as moving Oriole and Old Cummer closer to cross-corridors, or adding stations where the line crosses Steeles or Don Mills.

An ultimate vision would be to connect the GO-Owned Don Spur to the Richmond Hill line via a tunnel Don Mills Centre:

This would require the construction of a new viaduct to the south of the existing CP viaduct over the West branch of the Don. It would also require a cross-under of the CP mainline near Don Mills Rd to avoid conflicts with CP's freight operations.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

How is the suggestion of adding stations to the Richmond Hill line at all nutty?

Ever since the new year the DRL thread on here has had extensive discussion on adding new stations on the RH line. Notably at River/Bayview-Queen (Interchange with DRL), Don Mills-Eglinton (Interchange with Crosstown), and moving Oriole GO north of the 401 (Interchange with Sheppard). The only impossibility is a connection to the Bloor line for obvious geographic reasons.

It has been discussed in tandem with a DRL tunnel on Don Mills or a proposed second SmartTrack line on the RH-RER line that would also require a tunnel under Don Mills. The idea being to use the tunnel and then connect back to the surface rail line north of Lawrence. Metrolynx is looking IIRC at what can be done to the Richmond Hill alignment near the Don River amidst concerns of flooding and railtrack sinkage, sharing the DRL tunnel would alleviate concerns, increase tunnel frequency and very likely provide for a quicker trip.

Better integrating Oriole and Leslie/Sheppard does seem like a no-brainer and I presume the only reason it didn't happen when Sheppard was built was because, you know, we're not so good at co-coordinating these kind of things. (I don't see what can be done with Old Cummer. Move it up to Finch if the LRT line there ever gets built? Maybe, if you expropriate blocks of townhomes and sacrifice the station's current location in a hydro corridor...)

It's all fine and good to kick around ideas for improving the line but new stations in the valley are not going to happen, certainly not in the short-term. the DRL tunnel idea is kind of interesting but also very obviously in very preliminary stages. The only impossibility is integrating with Boor? IMHO, integrating with Bloor is the only thing that could possibly make that enterprise viable and, as you say, it can't be done.

None of what you're talking about is in the city's plans, nor the province's. The subway being discussed on this thread, on the other hand, is one of Metrolinx's top unfunded projects and it's already been approved by TTC and Toronto council (subject to caveats, of course) and has a complete EA. If funding were announced this week, they could likely be digging by end of the year. What we're trying to do, broadly speaking, is intensify development along transit lines throughout the GTA and there is effectively nowhere you can build a new RH-line station that will do this, whereas every new subway station will undoubtedly create intensification.

With GO, we're talking reality and fantasy-land. We're talking about trying to tweak a commuter line that runs through a ravine vs. a line that runs under the city's main street - already the densest corridor in the entire region - and continuing to extend that natural intensification north to a an existing transit hub for which Metrolinx's mobility hub plans, and the secondary plans of both RH and Markham already are in place. In short, we are comparing apples and oranges and making the GO line an RER, even with fancy tunnels and an improved Oriole station, will do next to nothing to ameliorate the need for the subway.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Where is the parking lot in relation with the Oriole GO station? If Oriole GO station was moved next to Leslie Subway station, would the parking lot be further than say Main Station is to the Danforth GO?

 

[BurlOak]

Where is the parking lot in relation with the Oriole GO station? If Oriole GO station was moved next to Leslie Subway station, would the parking lot be further than say Main Station is to the Danforth GO?

That't true. Maybe it could be moved about 100m, but is it really worth it. More important is to built a covered walkway.

 

[dunkalunk]

I'd say extending the Oriole GO station platform north to Esther Shiner (~150m) would make quite a bit of sense. It would mostly be a matter of laying down some concrete and asphalt. If a covered walkway were then constructed from the north end of the platform to Leslie Subway Station, it would make the walking transfer no worse than the proposed walking transfer at Dundas West/Bloor (~200m). The Oriole GO station lot under the 401 would also still be within close walking distance to the southern end of the platform (~50m)

 

[MrsNesbitt]

I'd say extending the Oriole GO station platform north to Esther Shiner (~150m) would make quite a bit of sense. It would mostly be a matter of laying down some concrete and asphalt. If a covered walkway were then constructed from the north end of the platform to Leslie Subway Station, it would make the walking transfer no worse than the proposed walking transfer at Dundas West/Bloor (~200m). The Oriole GO station lot under the 401 would also still be within close walking distance to the southern end of the platform (~50m)

Agreed. Short of moving the entire station north, extending the platform and giving it a link to Leslie subway like that is probably the best way to connect this infamously almost-there GO-TTC transfer.

Of course, looking forward to the eventual need for double-tracking the corridor for RER (which absokutely has to be done, space constraints or expropriation be damned), we would need to put in some thought about where those walkways would go so that they don't need to be torn down in a few year's time if the platform's location is adjusted. Considering the narrow nature of the corridor here, I would think that a double-track Oriole Station would probably have a centre platform. Maybe we could even get a walkway to Ikea to get our meatball fix

Old Cummer is another tough one; basically it's only located where it is because the hydro corridor made it a convenient location to do so - there's certainly nothing major about the surrounding area. As mentioned above, the station could be moved to Finch (requiring expropriation), but I think Steeles would be a better option, for stop spacing purposes alone basically (same low-density suburbs surrounding the station as it would be at Finch), and also because I'm a believer in the idea of a Steeles LRT. But that's all a little excessive.

Anyhow, I've derailed this thread away from the Yonge North extension enough. Considering that I remember having a rather impassioned debate with TJ about this project a few months ago in this thread, I shan't stoke the fires any further

 

[nfitz]

Where is the parking lot in relation with the Oriole GO station? If Oriole GO station was moved next to Leslie Subway station, would the parking lot be further than say Main Station is to the Danforth GO?

It's under the 401, so its along the north portionend of the platform. If you were to slide the platform about 250 metres north, it would still overlap about 60 metres with the existing platform, and it would be a 60 metre walk north from the end of the platform to Leslie station. And 60 metres south from the platform to the parking lot.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Old Cummer is another tough one; basically it's only located where it is because the hydro corridor made it a convenient location to do so - there's certainly nothing major about the surrounding area. As mentioned above, the station could be moved to Finch (requiring expropriation), but I think Steeles would be a better option, for stop spacing purposes alone basically (same low-density suburbs surrounding the station as it would be at Finch), and also because I'm a believer in the idea of a Steeles LRT. But that's all a little excessive.

Anyhow, I've derailed this thread away from the Yonge North extension enough. Considering that I remember having a rather impassioned debate with TJ about this project a few months ago in this thread, I shan't stoke the fires any further

The Steeles idea sounds compelling but the geography won't work.

First, the rail line cuts west there, going behind neighbourhoods. But the real issue isn't the station, it's parking. The hydro corridor provides that at old cummer but Steeles (at Leslie or Bayview) is hilly and the North side is trca-protected floodplain. You simply can't do it. That circles back to my point about the entire line being very constrained but we do all agree they need to link up Oriole, on principle.

So, if the logical question becomes "gosh darn it, where CAN we drop transit-oriented infill intensified development round these parts?!" you can take a deep breath abs be amazed there happens to be something like 200 prime acres around Yonge and Highway 7. Can you beat that?

 

[nfitz]

The Steeles idea sounds compelling but the geography won't work.

First, the rail line cuts west there, going behind neighbourhoods. But the real issue isn't the station, it's parking.

There's an easy solution to that. There's a large golf course at Steeles and Leslie that backs onto the tracks. As densification occurs, this isn't a great land use - or a profitable one (which why there are many former golf courses closer to Toronto covered with houses and other developments). If Metrolinx were to expropriate the golf course (at fair market value), build a station that backs onto the platform on Steeles, and sell the rest of the land for development, they'd probably pretty much break even. Though one could also argue the station (or another station) would make sense where the line crosses John Street or Bayview.

 

[MrsNesbitt]

The Steeles idea sounds compelling but the geography won't work.

First, the rail line cuts west there, going behind neighbourhoods. But the real issue isn't the station, it's parking. The hydro corridor provides that at old cummer but Steeles (at Leslie or Bayview) is hilly and the North side is trca-protected floodplain. You simply can't do it. That circles back to my point about the entire line being very constrained but we do all agree they need to link up Oriole, on principle.

So, if the logical question becomes "gosh darn it, where CAN we drop transit-oriented infill intensified development round these parts?!" you can take a deep breath abs be amazed there happens to be something like 200 prime acres around Yonge and Highway 7. Can you beat that?

Yeah the geography of Steeles would make it difficult to have a traditional GO station with a vast sea of parking, but I wonder if (given sufficient demand being proven, and therefore also requiring some form of higher-order transit along Steeles itself to feed into the station - hence my Steeles LRT comments) an RER-style infill station could be slid into place along the existing corridor, lacking any parking, similar to Bloor Station on the Kitchener Line - not to replace Old Cummer but in addition to it.

As for your 200 prime acres of developable land at Yonge & Hwy 7, would that be in the southeast quadrant of the access ramp from Yonge to 7 where (according to Google Maps - sorry, I don't get out this way much) there's current a large empty field with a pond on it? Or are you also counting redevelopment of the large plaza between the access road and High Tech Road, adjacent to Langstaff GO? Because if we're also counting land available for redevelopment from existing non-transit-oriented retail uses as up for grabs in this equation, then Yonge & Steeles has the vast expense of Centerpoint Mall going for it, as well as multiple old strip plazas along the east side of Yonge south of the intersection, a gas station at the northeast corner, and more strip plazas on the north side of Steeles west of the intersection.

Similarly, does this massive intensification plan you speak of for Yonge & 7 include massive improvements to the streetscape of Highway 7 itself through Richmond Hill? Because as it stands, this is still the stretch of 7 that acts like a controlled-access expressway (dating from before construction of the 407), with almost nothing fronting onto the road itself, and access to 7 from intersecting arterials provided by access ramps rather than at-grade intersections, to keep car traffic flowing faster. Not the sort of road that lends itself well to street-fronting or transit-oriented development very well, without a great overhaul at least.

 

[wopchop]

All of the land along Langstaff road, south of Highway 407, but north of Holy Cross Cemetery, between Yonge Street to Bayview, is targeted for intensification. That is easily 40 hectares alone.

North of the 407, I believe basically everything from the south-side of High Tech Road (ie. all the big box plazas) north to Scott - Bantry, and from the west side of Yonge street east to Red Maple (for things north of High Tech) and Silver Linden (for things south of High Tech) has also been re-zoned for high-density. Google maps tells me that this area is about 52 hectares, although obviously not totally undeveloped already.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Bingo, what wopchop said. The Markham parcel alone is 115 acres. There are renderings (massing models) of those lands elsewhere in this thread.

You will note, on the map I posted above that Yonge - Steeles has a white dot and Highway 7 a black one. That's because they are both mobility hubs but 7 is an anchor mobility hub and designated urban growth centre. Centerpoint will definitely intensify, but not on that scale. (I'm too lazy right now but Google "langstaff gateway" and "Richmond Hill centre" if you're not familiar. Both secondary plans are done deals. )

I only see a Steeles station for RER making sense (maybe) if an LRT is feeding it as there is zero room for parking or development.

Oh and the golf course is an interesting idea but it's surrounded by mansions and (again) abuts a flood plain ; or may be on the floodplain. I suspect expropriation costs are way out of Metrolinx's budget if the land is even usable so... A lot of ifs and in the meantime is not in the growth plan or big move so, again, we're comparing something 30 or 40 years away to something with an approved EA.

 

[jeffreym]

There's an easy solution to that. There's a large golf course at Steeles and Leslie that backs onto the tracks. As densification occurs, this isn't a great land use - or a profitable one (which why there are many former golf courses closer to Toronto covered with houses and other developments). If Metrolinx were to expropriate the golf course (at fair market value), build a station that backs onto the platform on Steeles, and sell the rest of the land for development, they'd probably pretty much break even. Though one could also argue the station (or another station) would make sense where the line crosses John Street or Bayview.

You can't expropriate land for resale afaik

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

You can't expropriate land for resale afaik

No, you're right. The "best case scenario" described by nfitz's "easy solution" is that they expropriate the land they need for this hypothetical station (the one dreamed up by this board and, as far as we know, not a single actual planner working for any branch of government) and get away with it. Then the owners of the very-wealthy golf course, surrounded by $5M homes lose their appeal and, faced with a train station somewhere near the 6th hole (i.e. an expropriation that makes it impossible for them to continue operating on, what, 30 or 40 acre site?), decide the jig is up and decide they'll just shut down and redevelop and make money that way. Of course, given the neighbourhood and how they'll fight new development, it's virtually impossible to get any transit-oriented intensification but maybe, if the TRCA allows it, they can build a whole bunch of luxury townhomes and Bob's your uncle. I guess what I'm saying is, it's not happening in our lifetimes.

So, so much for the only thing even remotely resembling a plan to add more viable stations on the RH line.
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