Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[Coolstar]

However, the Yonge extension is useful in any case, as it creates a good connection between the central North York and central Richmond Hill. RH GO Trains cannot do that as they divert quite far east from the central North York.

Also, the lack of stops in North York and Midtown Toronto on RH compared to the Yonge Line.

 

[Sunnyside]

Also, the lack of stops in North York and Midtown Toronto on RH compared to the Yonge Line.

The Richmond Hill Line just has so many fundamental issues that I can't ever see getting worked out, nevermind just stations. It cannot be an express Line 1 because of its diversion east, yes, but specifically because of what's south of York Mills- it physically can't even meet the two E/W lines down there. It effectively means Richmond Hill doesn't really have usable rail service at all in comparison to other parts of the GTHA- and also part of why Line 1 was being extended. I really don't think upgrading RH as-is on its current alignment would ever have been a good use of money- the only way to properly use the thing is to reroute its southern section onto something- anything else in the very long term.

 

[MrGoose]

The Richmond Hill Line just has so many fundamental issues that I can't ever see getting worked out, nevermind just stations. It cannot be an express Line 1 because of its diversion east, yes, but specifically because of what's south of York Mills- it physically can't even meet the two E/W lines down there. It effectively means Richmond Hill doesn't really have usable rail service at all in comparison to other parts of the GTHA- and also part of why Line 1 was being extended. I really don't think upgrading RH as-is on its current alignment would ever have been a good use of money- the only way to properly use the thing is to reroute its southern section onto something- anything else in the very long term.

The Richmond hill line is not as unfixable as you make it out to seem.

1. Express Line 1: sure it can’t be an express line 1, but if you take the Leaside Spur you can have it be as fast as Line 1 and divert ridership from the east. This would unlock the most benefits for the line, allowing it to run faster and hit more locations riders actually want to go to.

2. Connections with EW line: a connection with the Leslie stop at Eglinton is fairly cheap, as it will be above ground. I think a bridge and tunnel connection is possible for a connection at broadview or Castle Frank.

3. Lower Don Alignment: You can keep the route along the Don, or for full conversion to subway, go under Castle Frank and Parliament to go under downtown like the Ontario Line. If we don’t want to do that, elevating the line over Bayview and the bridges could intercept streetcar riders and provide more connections and line utility


All of these changes would be supercharged with the electrification of the line and fare integration. Once we see fate integration and the electrification of the other GO lines, we’ll probably see the political will to upgrade the Richmond Hill and Milton Lines grow.

 

[smallspy]

The Richmond Hill Line just has so many fundamental issues that I can't ever see getting worked out, nevermind just stations. It cannot be an express Line 1 because of its diversion east, yes, but specifically because of what's south of York Mills- it physically can't even meet the two E/W lines down there. It effectively means Richmond Hill doesn't really have usable rail service at all in comparison to other parts of the GTHA- and also part of why Line 1 was being extended. I really don't think upgrading RH as-is on its current alignment would ever have been a good use of money- the only way to properly use the thing is to reroute its southern section onto something- anything else in the very long term.

The Richmond Hill Line is already an express counterpart to the Yonge Subway - the ridership numbers pre-COVID bear that out. But it's only offering an express service to those riders heading to and from downtown, whereas I think a lot of people envision an express service to directly parallel the current subway and stop at many of the same stops, and thus capture more of its ridership.

That said, can more be done to make the Richmond Hill line even better and capture more of that ridership? Absolutely.

Dan

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

The Richmond Hill Line is already an express counterpart to the Yonge Subway - the ridership numbers pre-COVID bear that out. But it's only offering an express service to those riders heading to and from downtown, whereas I think a lot of people envision an express service to directly parallel the current subway and stop at many of the same stops, and thus capture more of its ridership.

That said, can more be done to make the Richmond Hill line even better and capture more of that ridership? Absolutely.

Again, this whole thread is going back to stuff that's been hashed out many, many times but this is the correct take
-The RH line provides what amounts to Union express service, which is great and necessary
-It can and should certainly be improved and take more of the load as this area develops
-It could never be a subway alternative - they serve different markets and purposes - and anyone who thinks that maximizing this GO service would negate the need for the subway, simply because this is in the 905, are out to lunch. They demonstrate a faillure to understand the growth plans, the commuting patterns and really everything else about what is going on north of Finch Station. Yeah, I'm talking about people like this guy who, I am fairly certain, has never seen Yonge/7 in person (notwithstanding that I generally respect him and his opinions). A busway!!

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The Richmond Hill Line just has so many fundamental issues that I can't ever see getting worked out, nevermind just stations. It cannot be an express Line 1 because of its diversion east, yes, but specifically because of what's south of York Mills- it physically can't even meet the two E/W lines down there. It effectively means Richmond Hill doesn't really have usable rail service at all in comparison to other parts of the GTHA- and also part of why Line 1 was being extended. I really don't think upgrading RH as-is on its current alignment would ever have been a good use of money- the only way to properly use the thing is to reroute its southern section onto something- anything else in the very long term.

The Richmond Hill line can still be upgraded, but it will serve a different market.

 

[GenerationW]

I understood some of that back when the project was first announced but I kind of expect people on these boards to know more than the Average Joe. There's nothing to say about this topic that wasn't already said many times back in the 2009-2015 era. All sorts of nonsense about it the project not making sense, going to suburbia or it should be built but only to Steeles, or whatever. The policy context - or even just looking at the area on Google Earth - should make the need for it clear but some things are never going to change, I guess.

I mean, post-COVID, we still have to listen to this "People from the suburbs only use transit to go the financial district!" nonsense? The idea that somewhere there's someone who lives at Yonge/Eg and works in Markham is nigh imcomprehensible, apparently. The idea that the barren hinterlands of Yonge and Finch - not in Toronto but in the City of North York, in the 1970s - could support a subway would have raised just as much ire if this forum existed then, I'm sure.

It was the Borough of North York then, part of Toronto (the Metro version), and Yonge was not barren at all though very suburban.

People still complaining that subway extensions should stop at Steeles are a day late and a dollar short. Toronto had countless opportunities to extend both ends of YUS to Steeles but never did. It took York Region's growth and increasing political influence (which caught Toronto totally by surprise) to make it happen. No doubt the Ontario Line will go north of Steeles, and probably Bloor-Danforth up McCowan one day.

 

[Reecemartin]

Yonge st is probably the one corridor you could always justify having a subway slowly extend up. It’s such a good connection because it is the most central artery in the entire region. People joke about it going all the way to Barrie, but look at the tube lines in London; some of them go very very far. And of course, every time the Yonge line is extended, development follows. It’s the largest (and longest) established place for TOD anywhere in the GTHA.

The unique part is that any question of demand for a subway on Yonge almost entirely comes down to how much pressure there is from the north pushing down on it at a municipal level; it seems that if a place like North York, as a whole, put enough pressure onto Yonge into Toronto, so too has Richmond Hill today. I would argue moreso if I am being honest, but that’s another story.

Many tube lines do go way out there, but they are above ground at grade, often even pretty close to Central London. No reason we couldn't be doing the same if subway extensions were above ground in Toronto. London also has loads of branches because when you are that far out you do not need a train every 3 minutes and maybe even not every 7 minutes.

 

[Sunnyside]

Many tube lines do go way out there, but they are above ground at grade, often even pretty close to Central London. No reason we couldn't be doing the same if subway extensions were above ground in Toronto. London also has loads of branches because when you are that far out you do not need a train every 3 minutes and maybe even not every 7 minutes.

I think the question here is effectively if it is worth converting the Richmond Hill line or Barrie Line into Line 1, or simply using their ROWs for cheap but long extensions. Only sending the necessary number of trains of course- maybe half-hourly frequency or what have you. Luckily, Line 1 seems set up to use the GO corridor from Langstaff on instead of tunneling, but the question might be how far. Maybe to the end of contiguous Richmond Hill at 19th Line- but after that your converting or adding larger sections of incompatible track…

This seems to be the guiding philosophy behind things like the Ontario Line’s gauge and long term plans to expand it very far- it’s likely easier and more resilient to use proprietary tech than send TTC gauge trains to say, Burlington or Oshawa. But that’s not particularly relevant, and I’m bringing a second contentious topic (OL gauge) into this one, lol. Anywho, like you praised the OL for doing, terminating a subway above ground into a rail corridor always makes things far easier to extend, which is what we see here. The limits of that are up for debate, but way beyond our scope right now.

 

[Rainforest]

I think the question here is effectively if it is worth converting the Richmond Hill line or Barrie Line into Line 1, or simply using their ROWs for cheap but long extensions. Only sending the necessary number of trains of course- maybe half-hourly frequency or what have you. Luckily, Line 1 seems set up to use the GO corridor from Langstaff on instead of tunneling, but the question might be how far. Maybe to the end of contiguous Richmond Hill at 19th Line- but after that your converting or adding larger sections of incompatible track…

There are a few drawbacks here. One is that Line 1 has a 3-rd rail, high voltage. Running along the RH or Barrie line would necessitate elaborate grade-separated crossings everywhere. Or, using dual power trains that feed from 3-rd rail in the tunnel and switch to overhead in the open.

The second is that Barrie Line is an express inside 416, only stops once (eventually will stop twice) before reaching Union. Running via Line 1 tunnel would add a huge number of stops and make the trip far worse for those travelling from Barrie.

 

[Sunnyside]

There are a few drawbacks here. One is that Line 1 has a 3-rd rail, high voltage. Running along the RH or Barrie line would necessitate elaborate grade-separated crossings everywhere. Or, using dual power trains that feed from 3-rd rail in the tunnel and switch to overhead in the open.

The second is that Barrie Line is an express inside 416, only stops once (eventually will stop twice) before reaching Union. Running via Line 1 tunnel would add a huge number of stops and make the trip far worse for those travelling from Barrie.

Well, I was moreso thinking of the utility of using the right of way for Line 1 once the RH Line goes too far out of the way from Yonge- not erasing the Barrie Line… but I see how you could read it that way. Really we’re talking about a potential new railway to link the two corridors. But, at that point it’s just the track specs you’ve mentioned and maybe the service pattern of actually running onto Line 1 being the only thing in the vein of Line 1 anymore. I’m sure there are solutions to operate such a service that don’t require extending Line 1 to full TTC specs, maybe just as a better regional rail line, but you seem to know more about that than I.

To put it as clearly as possible for what I’m thinking of, the problem being “solved” is you create a more central N/S link than what the Richmond Hill Line provides north of Richmond Hill/Aurora by building a new connecting segment to the Barrie line as it veers eastward. This would make local travel in the patchily-urbanized parts of York Region (Newmarket, etc and beyond) more direct than what is available now. Might be a good ‘upgrade’ for VIVA here in a century. Likely completely pointless, but it’s a fun thought exercise!

 

[ARG1]

There are a few drawbacks here. One is that Line 1 has a 3-rd rail, high voltage. Running along the RH or Barrie line would necessitate elaborate grade-separated crossings everywhere. Or, using dual power trains that feed from 3-rd rail in the tunnel and switch to overhead in the open.

While I agree that Line 1 should be fully grade separated, the Chicago El (600V 3rd rail) has at grade junctions no problem, same with the Long Island Railroad (750V DC 3rd rail).

 

[robmausser]

While I agree that Line 1 should be fully grade separated, the Chicago El (600V 3rd rail) has at grade junctions no problem, same with the Long Island Railroad (750V DC 3rd rail).

They are historical and grandfathered systems. While they still exist, no one would build a new one to work in such a way. It's just not done anymore for safety and other reasons.

 

[T3G]

I also dont't think much of the idea of there being pedestrian access to a train that is supposed to be operated by a computer. I don't trust that a sensor would be able to pick up every person that strays across the path of the train, and no one else should, either.

 

[Reecemartin]

I think the question here is effectively if it is worth converting the Richmond Hill line or Barrie Line into Line 1, or simply using their ROWs for cheap but long extensions. Only sending the necessary number of trains of course- maybe half-hourly frequency or what have you. Luckily, Line 1 seems set up to use the GO corridor from Langstaff on instead of tunneling, but the question might be how far. Maybe to the end of contiguous Richmond Hill at 19th Line- but after that your converting or adding larger sections of incompatible track…

This seems to be the guiding philosophy behind things like the Ontario Line’s gauge and long term plans to expand it very far- it’s likely easier and more resilient to use proprietary tech than send TTC gauge trains to say, Burlington or Oshawa. But that’s not particularly relevant, and I’m bringing a second contentious topic (OL gauge) into this one, lol. Anywho, like you praised the OL for doing, terminating a subway above ground into a rail corridor always makes things far easier to extend, which is what we see here. The limits of that are up for debate, but way beyond our scope right now.

The thing is, with the prices we build "subway" for today it doesn't really make sense to extend the subway deep into the burbs beyond Toronto