Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[salsa]

mdrejhon, a big difference between Mississauga / York Region is that those cities are much lower density than Greece and Japan, and thus have much more infrastructure per capita to build and maintain. It's very expensive to provide transit, roads and municipal services to sprawling subdivisions. It remains to be seen how well these cities will cope over the long term.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

mdrejhon, a big difference between Mississauga / York Region is that those cities are much lower density than Greece and Japan, and thus have much more infrastructure per capita to build and maintain. It's very expensive to provide transit, roads and municipal services to sprawling subdivisions. It remains to be seen how well these cities will cope over the long term.

This strikes me as both true and absurd at the same time; we're comparing the economies of Mississauga and Japan, right?

I'll say this much: what you say is dead on in that we built, for a long time, in a very unsustainable way. One of the best ways to perpetuate that, now that we've learned the lesson, is to avoid building transit in natural corridors in suburbs. Of course, things should be prioritized and paid for responsibly etc. etc. but Mississauga and York Region are both making conscious efforts to build differently than the kind of development that got them into this pickle. We can help that or hinder it. Or sit back and wait to see how they cope.

EDIT: Just to add this screenshot from today's provincial budget. You know a project is dead in the water and forgotten when it's called out in the budget, folks.

 

[Dan416]

I'm not the biggest fan of the Yonge North extension, but I don't understand why there's so much argument about it. Nor do I comprehend the anti-Scarborough sentiment. We are so far behind on transit that people are turning against each other rather than supporting all the transit that we need.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I'm not the biggest fan of the Yonge North extension, but I don't understand why there's so much argument about it. Nor do I comprehend the anti-Scarborough sentiment. We are so far behind on transit that people are turning against each other rather than supporting all the transit that we need.

This is a good point. I don't really mean to bash Scarborough, as a project. My problem with it is the entire process. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, the subway is actually preferable to the LRT (I happen to disagree, but it's not an entirely insane notion). Still, the reversals by council cost years and wasted money. Still, the council debate was utterly absurd with the LRT's biggest detractor (Rob Ford!) literally unaware of where the LRT was set to run. No one talked about how it fit in to the TTC's larger plans (or the city's, or the region's) and no one asked Metrolinx if they had an opinion, based on the plans in place, projected ridership etc. what was the best fit for this corridor. Instead it was all about what some people think they deserve, and it was somehow even worse than the usual purely political decisions that get made. but, as you say, it's transit getting built and, for all it's flaws, that's something. (Sheppard bashing: now THAT's a sport! also absurd and unfair, but quite popular.)

And that brings me to the bigger problem, which is a simple lack of money. The resources are so scarce that implementing a new tax to pay for a project that, objectively speaking, is not near the top of the priority list and which does serve a purpose, but only a narrow one, has a ripple effect on other projects. So, people are pitted against each other. We've really seen over the past few years how the old city and suburbs resent each other, and then the same pattern repeats where the 416 unites against the 905. It's all, you're quite right, entirely counter-productive.

Personally, there is no project going on (not even Scarborough!!) that I am even 10% as opposed to compared to how some people here feel about the Yonge extension.

Why do people argue against a line that, by nearly any objective measure, is entirely sensible?
-Because it doesn't help "me"
-Because if you build it, it might even negatively affect "me" by delaying MY project or preventing me from getting a seat on the train; transit becomes a zero sum game.

If funds were flowing regularly and if our governance and transit were structured differently, we'd just be jockeying to see who goes first and having friendly jabs but now everyone gets worried that if X gets built Y won't get for 20 years, because that's how things seem to happen around here. I understand that cynicism, for sure.

And then, all due respect, there's people who just don't know the facts. They think "the suburbs" can't support subways on principle and even if they can, it's on the other side of a line so not their problem, or they drew a fantasy map once and are convinced it's The Big Move 3.0 or they're well-intentioned but totally wrong about things as basic as how active the ongoing process is. Most people are well-intentioned, I think, but they're not the ones who grab the spotlight.

 

[44 North]

In the year 2012-2013 97,460 people used finch station each week day on average. Source pdf

So it isn't just Viva blue that's taking all the riders there, you forgot Viva pink, Yrt routes 88, 23, 99, 2, and 91. People in york who live near steeles will often just walk to steeles and take the TTC (53 Steeles East, 60 Steeles West) to Finch in order to only have to pay once. [/URL]
...
I don't know how many make it all the way to finch for each route.
I think this is second best subway expansion in terms of ridership, the first being the DRL.

Thanks for this. I guess it’s a bit of a stacked or biased argument for me to focus on 'just the Yonge corridor, and only b/n Steeles and Hwy 7'. Obviously a lot of bus routes would be diverted (gerrymandered?) were there to be a subway along that stretch. But I’m still of the opinion that existing ridership on the N/S Yonge corridor between Steeles and Hwy 7 isn’t significantly busy, as far as "busy" surface corridors go in the GTA.

If we were to extend the Yonge section of Line 1, I think Steeles would be an optimal terminus and ridership on the new section would definitely be subway-level and very high. I do not doubt that (although I strongly believe any extension should wait until we have a proper parallel line in operation). The section I am sceptical of is north of Steeles to the proposed centre at Yonge/7.

As for the info you posted. My source is slightly different than yours, and might be more up to date. From Dec 2013: E.g Viva Blue: 16,600 (seemingly ~20% lower than 2012); 99 + 99E: 2,300,.. etc.

http://www.york.ca/wps/wcm/connect/...-06377528e99d/feb+6+ridership.pdf?MOD=AJPERES

I'm not the biggest fan of the Yonge North extension, but I don't understand why there's so much argument about it. Nor do I comprehend the anti-Scarborough sentiment. We are so far behind on transit that people are turning against each other rather than supporting all the transit that we need.

I don’t think I’ll fully grasp the anti-Scarboro sentiment. Or how anyone can support extending Line 1 to VMC or RHC, but flat-out be against extending Line 2 to STC. Scarboro’s transit usage, density, ridership, etc…it’s all there. North of Steeles? It’s not currently all there, and what may exist is mostly theoretical.

Now, I used to be staunchly against extending subways to STC (via Sheppard, and even Line 2 to an extent) – and in many ways I still am. But after brushing up on my TO history, and taking a step back to really gauge the situation and what’s going on here – I can’t see why more don’t notice that we’re essentially repeating our history.

-Planning fancy new satellite suburban "centres": check
-Relying on (iffy?) projections for population, jobs, and mode share in said "centres": check
-Spending a king’s ransom to bring subways to said "centres": check
-Continuing to ignore the DRL: check

Etobicoke City Centre, North York City Centre, Scarborough City Centre, Vaughan Metropolitan Centre, Richmond Hill Centre...Eglinton West, Sheppard East, Yonge North… there are similarities.

And people are turning against each other because funds are finite. Everyone wants their pet project, but there’s not enough money for that to happen. Yonge North is a bit different IMO because of the Yonge capacity situation. Had that not been a problem, it’d probably be finishing up by now (much to my chagrin).

And then, all due respect, there's people who just don't know the facts. They think "the suburbs" can't support subways on principle and even if they can, it's on the other side of a line so not their problem, or they drew a fantasy map once and are convinced it's The Big Move 3.0 or they're well-intentioned but totally wrong about things as basic as how active the ongoing process is. Most people are well-intentioned, I think, but they're not the ones who grab the spotlight.

Not to mention those who continue to bandy about preliminary renders dating back to 2009, seemingly unaware that plans: a) can change, b) will change, and c) have changed.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I'm not the biggest fan of the Yonge North extension, but I don't understand why there's so much argument about it. Nor do I comprehend the anti-Scarborough sentiment. We are so far behind on transit that people are turning against each other rather than supporting all the transit that we need.

Anti Scarborough sentiment? Why would you say anyone here is anti-Scarborough?

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Anti Scarborough sentiment? Why would you say anyone here is anti-Scarborough?

I don't think there's overt anti-Scarborough sentiment but some people (including me, I happily admit) have cited Scarborough as evidence of how messed up the transit planning process is, particularly when it comes to saying, "This line should be built, but not that one." Thus, it's pretty hard to argue (IMHO) Scarborough is a more viable or inherently successful or important-to-the-network subway plan than either Yonge or the DRL. Scarborough came at the expense of other projects (Transit City particularly, obviously) but that's not anti-Scarborough, per se. It's a systemic complaint, at least for me.

Not to mention those who continue to bandy about preliminary renders dating back to 2009, seemingly unaware that plans: a) can change, b) will change, and c) have changed.

Not to mention people, who:
a) hadn't seen those "renders" before forming opinions and
b) don't understand, after repeated explanations, that they are NOT renders. They are MASSING MODELS that show the high-level heights/zoning, urban structure now in place.

Here are helpful explanations of the differences from a crowdsourced Internet encyclopedia I found:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architectural_rendering

Everyone knows the plans change (I wonder, for example, if the developers will ask for HIGHER densities if the subway keeps taking longer?) but you keep on truckin!

Oh, and the bus routes won't be "gerrymandered" when/if the subway opens. They're "gerrymandered" now and that's kind of the whole point of the bus thing. I don't know what else you call a bus that won't pick up "certain people" because they're on the wrong side of a line, even though the bus and person are going to the same place.

 

[species5618w]

Would riders be charged double for taking the extension?

IMHO, it would be a big step forward if they could just let Viva riders take the subway for free (using presto to split revenue) and maybe extend the bus lane to RHC. Viva is plenty fast for north of Yonge already and it's almost never jam packed anyway.

 

[BMO]

Would riders be charged double for taking the extension?

IMHO, it would be a big step forward if they could just let Viva riders take the subway for free (using presto to split revenue) and maybe extend the bus lane to RHC. Viva is plenty fast for north of Yonge already and it's almost never jam packed anyway.

The subway ride would be under the same fare as any other subway station but the transfer to a surface route in York Region would be a double fare unless some miraculous revelation at a regional level occurs...I'm not optimistic

 

[minilude]

I live near yonge hwy7, the cost of going DT is $10.6-$11 round trip no matter if I take go train or park at finch station during weekday, but if I take viva/subway, cost would be $12.2-$14 round trip. YRT/Viva should really think about to negotiate a better term to encourage ridership on their transit...

 

[BMO]

I live near yonge hwy7, the cost of going DT is $10.6-$11 round trip no matter if I take go train or park at finch station during weekday, but if I take viva/subway, cost would be $12.2-$14 round trip. YRT/Viva should really think about to negotiate a better term to encourage ridership on their transit...

Not to mention YRT has the highest transit fare in North America. The BRT has to be maintained and serviced somehow during construction (extra buses/ drivers to services slower travel times across a multitude of routes). This compounded by the fact they are mandated by regional council to have a 50/50 farebox recovery ratio has them stuck between a rock and a hard place. One would hop there'd be a provision, at least at Steeles for the ability to "tap-Off" so that users just using the subway within York Region or to York University wouldn't be penalized a double fare.

 

[species5618w]

Not to mention YRT has the highest transit fare in North America. The BRT has to be maintained and serviced somehow during construction (extra buses/ drivers to services slower travel times across a multitude of routes). This compounded by the fact they are mandated by regional council to have a 50/50 farebox recovery ratio has them stuck between a rock and a hard place. One would hop there'd be a provision, at least at Steeles for the ability to "tap-Off" so that users just using the subway within York Region or to York University wouldn't be penalized a double fare.

I have no problem with their prices. The Viva is much quicker and far more comfortable than TTC buses. However, paying TTC again is painful. I think YRT has an agreement with GO to transfer between services, so why not TTC?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Why should they? Just because the York Region chose to subsidize at a certain level doesn't mean the TTC has any responsibility to lower travel costs for those who live outside the municipality.

AoD

 

[species5618w]

Why should they? Just because the York Region chose to subsidize at a certain level doesn't mean the TTC has any responsibility to lower travel costs for those who live outside the municipality.

AoD

To save the environment? If this is strictly about money, then might as well rip out all public transit since most of them are losing money. Right now, the result is those who live in the 905 would simply drive. It doesn't really impact York Region since people in York Region would likely to own a car anyway and pollution is much less a problem due to less density. It's Toronto who has to breath that air and fix all the roads. More companies are also moving out of Toronto due to the terrible traffic condition.

That's why I think transit/road funding should be taking out of the hands of each municipality. They are just too selfish/stupid to work together. Municipal boundaries in the GTA are rather arbitrary.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

To save the environment? If this is strictly about money, then might as well rip out all public transit since most of them are losing money. Right now, the result is those who live in the 905 would simply drive. It doesn't really impact York Region since people in York Region would likely to own a car anyway and pollution is much less a problem due to less density. It's Toronto who has to breath that air and fix all the roads. More companies are also moving out of Toronto due to the terrible traffic condition.

That's why I think transit/road funding should be taking out of the hands of each municipality. They are just too selfish/stupid to work together. Municipal boundaries in the GTA are rather arbitrary.

You made it sound as if subsidizing transit especially for York Region commuters is doing the City of Toronto a favour. No offense, but that is patently untrue - and besides, road capacity is limited and the issue will be self-correcting (and the last time I've checked, companies aren't rushing to move out of Toronto, even downtown, where traffic conditions are the worst). Sorry, you chose to live in a low density area (sic "concern about the environment") - stop expecting others to subsidize your lifestyle choice and then claim it is for our benefit. And besides, if you are this concerned about the overall transit cost, perhaps you can persuade your region to increase the subsidy to YRT, since we should let me quote: "taken out of the hands of each municipality"?

AoD