Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

TJ O'Pootertoot said:
2 quick thoughts, which probably duplicate things others have said, at least to an extent:

1) Probably this should be in a thread of its own since, even if it goes beyond the fantasy stage, it's a separate project.

2) I like the concept, at a high level, but have a lot of questions about the actual execution. The "problem" is that by creating a totally separate express line, you're forced to locate the tunnels and then the stations away from the existing line and not necessarily where they otherwise make the most sense. So, for example, a Hogg's Hollow station and a Mt. Pleasant-area station make far less sense than stops that interline with the existing Sheppard and Crosstown lines. I suppose that helps people get from A to B but it doesn't necessarily facilitate other policy goals when it comes to intensification, an integrated transit network etc.

I guess we can all spitball where we think stops would make sense.... off the top of my head, I think (assuming the approved extension goes as is), an "Express" service would stop at RHC, Steeles, Finch, Sheppard, Eglinton, St. Clair, Bloor, DRL/Queen and Union. That probably DOESN'T make sense in terms of the practicalities of engineering, but it does make sense in terms of service. So that's the inherent conundrum here, I think.

So, to sum up, maybe the problem is just that I haven't wrapped my head around the notion of this as something entirely different but I think that any express line basically has to offer easy opportunities to transfer both to the "local" Line 1 service (e.g. Maybe you take express from Steeles to Eglinton and then transfer to get to Lawrence or Rosedale) and to the E/W services (Crosstown, Sheppard, Line 2, DRL) or it doesn't make much sense.
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My Yonge Express Subway ("YES") concept does include the new line running to Richmond Hill independent of Line 1, so it is relevant to this thread. That being said, the meat of what makes the YES a potential game-changer is what is proposed south of Steeles. I would like to start a separate thread to focus that discussion (and tried to do so) but apparently you need 20 posts in your history to start a new thread.
I think you have to get your head out of the perfect plan for a transit line (with nice connections at all the E/W lines) and look at an option where you can actually build another line on the same right-of-way. We need to get increased capacity to downtown so Line 1 can function. It won't once it is extended north and 905 riders are added. I think connections with shallow YES stations at York Mills, Mt Pleasant Cemetery and possibly Steeles, (if Line 1 is also extended a bit), will provide the necessary connectivity. You just have to switch from YES to Line 1 to get to an E/W line. That is not the end of the world.
 
Just for the record, Gary I don't know if it all quite makes sense but I think it's a good concept and the work you've put it in is clearly impressive.

I didn't mean your proposal was irrelevant, just that it deserves its own separate discussion as a distinct project/proposal but I see what you're saying about the hassle there.

It's easy to come up with fantasy lines - especially if you're not putting your real name on it - but this clearly isn't that and it's definitely good to have some outside ideas. So, while I question how workable this may actually be, and while I think our system makes it very challenging to implement on a number of levels, I think the discussion is worthwhile and commend you for that.
 
^I concur with TJ but also echo that a transportation planner would not be a bad addition to the consulting team.

Engineering solutions are great, until people don't use them. There is a lot more to do with mobility, ridership travel patterns, and the cost/benefit analysis that goes on in peoples heads when they decide to travel somewhere than engineering solutions can account for.

It is why I was always opposed to the Michael Schabas Neptis report on the Eglinton Crosstown. It looked at the Eglinton corridor and concluded the Eglinton Crosstown was not the quickest way from traveling across the city and was therefore bad. It completely disregarded the decision making that went to why locals along the Eglinton Corridor would opt to use transit, where they were going, and how they would use it. Transit coverage, trip destinations, and travel connections are all important factors to consider while planning a transit line, even an express line.

Else you could end up with something that functions well enough but is not useful, like a Mirabel Airport.
 
TJ O'Pootertoot said:
Just for the record, Gary I don't know if it all quite makes sense but I think it's a good concept and the work you've put it in is clearly impressive.

I didn't mean your proposal was irrelevant, just that it deserves its own separate discussion as a distinct project/proposal but I see what you're saying about the hassle there.

It's easy to come up with fantasy lines - especially if you're not putting your real name on it - but this clearly isn't that and it's definitely good to have some outside ideas. So, while I question how workable this may actually be, and while I think our system makes it very challenging to implement on a number of levels, I think the discussion is worthwhile and commend you for that.
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Thanks TJ. It is an uphill slog but got some coverage from Blog TO today. The writer actually read the proposal and brought forward some highlights https://www.blogto.com/city/2020/01/yonge-street-express-subway-has-now-been-proposed-toronto Perhaps this will encourage the City/Metrolinx to dig deeper (pun intended).
 
As someone who being calling for a 2nd Yonge Line and an express line well over a decade, nice to see this proposal. Why stop at the waterfront and not take the line over to the Islands???? Still need ferry boats to the other 2 locations, but removes the over crowding that takes place on the current 3 locations.

I do have issues with the stations locations like Hoggs Hollow other than a interchange point, as some are too far apart and miss locations where they are needed yesterday as future growth for the existing ones will out strip the capacity of them now.

Whats the big deal with a single bore when its done around the world now??? Seen too many in various counties. Ottawa was a single tunnel for their LRT line.

One has to keep in mind that most stations on line 1 will never support another Yonge line regardless what it is, as it will be a bitch trying to get to the surface like today.

At the end of the day, none of us will be around when it opens based on how transit gets built in Toronto or the GTA.
 
With great respect to our new member, this sub-thread is really off-course from the project for which this thread was created.

I appreciate his interest and work in his proposal; though frankly I don't see any party in government supporting it, or for that matter remotely considering it in the next 3 decades.

Its a matter of cost; and of politics, and neither favour such an exercise.

We have a vast backlog of transit needs that ought to be addressed.

When and if we get past the Ontario Line/Relief line as currently being discussed, the political choice to relieve Line 1 will be a northerly extension of the OL/RL to Sheppard; and further improvements to GO; along with new trains on Line 1 that run the whole length of the platform, affording a capacity expansion in the range 10-15%; along with capacity investments in stations.

That's no knock against the theoretical merits of an 'express line' its just the reality of government, of politics, of planning, of money.
 
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hw621 said:
www.blogto.com

A Yonge Street express subway has now been proposed for Toronto

Imagine hopping on a subway train along the eastern half of Toronto's big "U" and riding it all the way up to Richmond Hill, no transfers...
www.blogto.com www.blogto.com
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The major expense of any underground (or overhead) rapid transit line would be the stations. Especially if they end up building sprawling palaces for suburban stations. The other expensive parts would the interchange stations.
 
hw621 said:
www.blogto.com

A Yonge Street express subway has now been proposed for Toronto

Imagine hopping on a subway train along the eastern half of Toronto's big "U" and riding it all the way up to Richmond Hill, no transfers...
www.blogto.com www.blogto.com
Click to expand...

The concept is interesting and definitely deserves attention. But, the absence of stations in the business core is a critical flaw that would defeat the whole purpose of building the express. The old Yonge line would remain overcrowded, while the new line would see very light usage in the southern section that matters most and is supposed to provide the relief.

I don't know what's the most practical way of connecting the new line to the business core: running the downtown section under Bay, under Church, or perhaps retaining the route under Yonge and building 1, 2, or 3 very expensive deep stations. In any case, that task would have to be accomplished, or the new line would become an engineering marvel of little practical use.
 
Rainforest said:
The concept is interesting and definitely deserves attention. But, the absence of stations in the business core is a critical flaw that would defeat the whole purpose of building the express. The old Yonge line would remain overcrowded, while the new line would see very light usage in the southern section that matters most and is supposed to provide the relief.

I don't know what's the most practical way of connecting the new line to the business core: running the downtown section under Bay, under Church, or perhaps retaining the route under Yonge and building 1, 2, or 3 very expensive deep stations. In any case, that task would have to be accomplished, or the new line would become an engineering marvel of little practical use.
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I would say that those heading to Union may use this line and get off at Lakeshore. King is already a bit far and those riders would likely switch onto the old Yonge Line. Essentially, this would (at best) remove the SouthBound Yonge travelers who go to Union, and the remainder would stay on old Yonge. How much of a reduction, in terms of hard ppdph, I am not sure, but I don't think it's that much. Also, the same number of travelers would still transfer from Bloor to Yonge so the dwell time thing won't improve either.
 
BurlOak said:
I would say that those heading to Union may use this line and get off at Lakeshore. King is already a bit far and those riders would likely switch onto the old Yonge Line. Essentially, this would (at best) remove the SouthBound Yonge travelers who go to Union, and the remainder would stay on old Yonge. How much of a reduction, in terms of hard ppdph, I am not sure, but I don't think it's that much. Also, the same number of travelers would still transfer from Bloor to Yonge so the dwell time thing won't improve either.
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This makes me curious if average citizens can run ridership computations. Or does that take a supercomputer weeks/months. Also I guess they need to know the parameters to feed into it, which is more of a planning issue.
 
44 North said:
This makes me curious if average citizens can run ridership computations. Or does that take a supercomputer weeks/months. Also I guess they need to know the parameters to feed into it, which is more of a planning issue.
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You shouldn't need lots of computing power. Your desktop or laptop will probably do.

However, you would need the input parameters, and the model that needs to be calibrated.
 
Disparishun said:
(Would love to see a way to build the terminal out a bit, into the current parking lot, and dip the Harbourfront and Bathurst streetcar routes down to the built-out terminal's front door.)
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If they built a line along Bay, they could terminate it on the Island. However, that could kill plans for the Pickering airport. I feel more business class people would fly Porter more.
 
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