Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[amnesiajune]

Here's why London's Crossrail, on time, on budget and the largest infrastructure project in Europe is happening.

Why do you keep talking about Crossrail? It's a subway line using commuter trains in a metro area of 14 million. It has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

Mayor Tory said just six days ago that he wants Toronto to pay a $1.34 Billion share of the Relief Line costs, which would be the biggest funding commitment Toronto has ever made for a single infrastructure project.

I guess I need to be clearer - Toronto has absolutely no interest in paying for it on its own. Toronto doesn't even want to pay for a quarter of the project's cost. The Relief Line will never be funded by the provincial government as a standalone project - it's going to be tightly attached to the Yonge extension, because the province has a huge interest in getting that built. No Yonge extension to Highway 7 means no Relief Line, unless the city decides that it's worth covering the vast majority of the Relief Line's costs on its own.

 

[rbt]

Mayor Tory said just six days ago that he wants Toronto to pay a $1.34 Billion share of the Relief Line costs, which would be the biggest funding commitment Toronto has ever made for a single infrastructure project.

Kinda. Toronto will (probably) pay a share using the Gas Tax the province gives it. If you give your kid an allowance, then they split the restaurant bill with you, did they pay for half?

I'd like to see a lineitem on the property tax bill along side the SSE lineitem for at least $500M over 30 years.

 

[steveintoronto]

Why do you keep talking about Crossrail? It's a subway line using commuter trains in a metro area of 14 million. It has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

Because it has everything to do with the discussion, your inability to see the compelling business case, operational effectiveness, speed of service and *throughput* is what is exactly missing from the debate. Crossrail is not alone in showing how almost all *modern* cities aren't building subways anymore. They're building RERs, and in many cases, "through-running RERs". Crossrail is held up as a glowing example of how to do it, politically, financially, and tactically. Sorry about all the big words and reference.

Welcome to the twenty first century.

Amnesia then displays amnesia from berating the Crossrail model, which is what GO RER emulates, and what the province will impose on the *region*...not just Toronto (and fairly so) and then writes:

I guess I need to be clearer - Toronto has absolutely no interest in paying for it on its own. Toronto doesn't even want to pay for a quarter of the project's cost. The Relief Line will never be funded by the provincial government as a standalone project - it's going to be tightly attached to the Yonge extension, because the province has a huge interest in getting that built. No Yonge extension to Highway 7 means no Relief Line, unless the city decides that it's worth covering the vast majority of the Relief Line's costs on its own.

No comment needed...

It's a subway line

Errr...no. Is the Channel Tunnel a subway line? How about LIRR and MetroNorth? How about NewYork's Grand Central Station? Is that a subway station? (In fact a number of subways do also intersect there, but I digress)

 

[steveintoronto]

As a separate line of question: Has anyone calculated the *time* it will take to commute from the projected northern end of this extension to downtown?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Kinda. Toronto will (probably) pay a share using the Gas Tax the province gives it. If you give your kid an allowance, then they split the restaurant bill with you, did they pay for half?

I'd like to see a lineitem on the property tax bill along side the SSE lineitem for at least $500M over 30 years.

It would be paid using the hotel tax, property tax levy and road tolls, generating a combined $300 Million annually. Well the road tolls were replaced by the gas tax revenue, because the QP changed its mind on letting Toronto use road tolls

 

[steveintoronto]

It would be paid using the hotel tax, property tax levy and road tolls, generating a combined $300 Million annually. Well the road tolls were replaced by the gas tax revenue, because the QP changed its mind on letting Toronto use road tolls

You do realize that the hotel tax has also been nixed by QP, and that Tory remains adamantly against increasing property tax?

I'd like to see reference for your claim on Fed and QP financing for the RL. The Feds are still only committed on paper to $660,000 for the SSE.

The money's running out folks, at least Gov't money. Stand-by for the private sector to get involved....but only if it makes business sense. And that pretty much nixes subways.

That's why I posted reference to the Crossrail business model, but alas, it's a bit complex for the likes of some.

I'm a Centrist, but also a realist. The money ain't there folks! Not government money. Is there a compelling business case for the SSE, DRL and YSExtension? The Bank will be along shortly, meanwhile, a little retrospect:

Lawrence Solomon: Let private enterprise build subways

Lawrence Solomon | January 28, 2011 8:12 PM ET
More from Lawrence Solomon | @LSolomonTweets

A century ago, firms ran streetcars for profit, paying fees to government

By Lawrence Solomon

Three weeks ago, in a column praising the reform agenda of Rob Ford, Toronto’s new reform-minded Mayor, I invited readers to offer suggestions for additional reforms that Toronto, and other cities, should pursue. You have been coming through with innovative ideas that I will be expanding on and publicizing in this new Post feature, Fix Your City. To kick off this reader-initiated series, I’ll start with a suggestion from Torontonian Graham Smith that deals with Toronto’s transit system.

Mr. Ford is hoping the province will take the money-losing Toronto Transit Commission off his hands, and for good reason — the TTC not only drains the city’s coffers, the rudeness and laziness of its employees are a public scandal, no small matter for a mayor who is rebranding the city as “delivering customer service excellence.” Mr. Ford has another reason for wanting no part of the TTC — a subway line he promised across a low-density part of the city’s northeast makes no economic sense. If the province took over the TTC, he could wash his hands of his commitment.

Mr. Ford is right to want to be rid of the TTC — a city has no business running a public transit system. As urban guru Jane Jacobs advocated, public transit is a business that should be in private hands. But Mr. Ford would be wrong to give the TTC away. He should instead sell it to the highest bidder — the TTC would fetch $2-billion or more if put on the market, depending on the conditions attached (a decade ago, a U.K. company did try to purchase the TTC, but was rebuffed by the province).

Or, if Mr. Ford didn’t want to sell off the TTC holus bolus, he could auction off different routes, as did London, where contracting out was an instant success — the quality of service soared and costs dropped as companies offering everything from minibuses and double-deckers to subways and later trams competed for customers.
[...continues...]

Enter the headline title into Google and open in a stealth browser, or http://business.financialpost.com/fp-comment/lawrence-solomon-let-private-enterprise-build-subways

Lawrence Solomon is executive director of Energy Probe and Urban Renaissance Institute and author of Toronto Sprawls (University of Toronto Press).

To learn more of Graham Smith’s proposal, click here.

I disagree with his promotion of subways, albeit there are a few instances where that might still be the most apt choice. What is completely relevant, and your going to be hearing a lot more on this as the 'money dries up'...is the private and private/public model to deliver it.

But be prepared! If the business case doesn't make sense, it won't get built. And that will save a hell of a lot of endless debate over space elevators to the moon.

 

[amnesiajune]

They're building RERs, and in many cases, "through-running RERs". Crossrail is held up as a glowing example of how to do it, politically, financially, and tactically. Sorry about all the big words and reference.

This isn't the RER thread.

Is the Channel Tunnel a subway line? How about LIRR and MetroNorth?

Do the underground sections of LIRR and MetroNorth cross an entire city core and stop every kilometer and a half?

 

[steveintoronto]

This isn't the RER thread.

Do the underground sections of LIRR and MetroNorth cross an entire city core and stop every kilometer and a half?

You're going in circles again contradicting yourself. Is this the Circle Line?

Here's a map of the Paris RER, almost all of it in tunnel in the core, and bi-level coaches. One line alone carries more commuters per hour than any other commuter line in Europe. The cross section of the tunnel is less than that of the Crosstown single tunnels.

Amazing what a little vision can do...

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

The important thing here isn't the mode; it's clearly comparing Toronto to 2,000-year-old cities, with 150-year-old rapid transit systems and entirely different density distributions. [sighs]

this isn't to say we can't learn any lessons from Crossrail or other projects but we should be careful about what lessons actually apply.

Anyway, as for travel times, I seem to recall it was like 44 minutes but I don't know why that number is popping into my head. Maybe it's in the EA? Maybe that's the Spadina extension number?

I had a quick look at the 2012 conceptual design report - it estimates just over 15 mins from RH to Finch so 45 total sounds about right?

 

[nfitz]

Crossrail is not alone in showing how almost all *modern* cities aren't building subways anymore.

Not sure which cities you are referring to. New York City is building conventional subway, with two recent extensions. So is London with both Northern and Metropolitan Line extensions on the books. So are Paris, Seoul, Bangkok, and Montreal (if the Blue Line extension ever happens as promised). Even Vancouver is looking at a very conventional extension of the Millenium in a subway tunnel.

Errr...no. Is the Channel Tunnel a subway line? How about LIRR and MetroNorth? How about NewYork's Grand Central Station? Is that a subway station? (In fact a number of subways do also intersect there, but I digress)

Do any of those lines run 9-car (205 metre long) trains every 150 seconds (peak) to 225 seconds (offpeak).

How the Elizabeth Line services are considered to be anything but a subway line, like the other tube lines, is beyond me.

 

[steveintoronto]

How the Elizabeth Line services are considered to be anything but a subway line, like the other tube lines, is beyond me.

Evidently it is beyond you. They are mainline trains in every respect of the definition. They connect to Network Rail and do what is termed "through-running". All of this is linked and defined in these forums and on-line.

What next? Penn Station is subway too because it's underground and fed by tunnels, save for the West Side Line channeling down and connecting in sub-surface?

I've already mentioned the Northern Line extension two stops. The Metropolitan line is a diversion back onto the Croxley RoW...which was originally, wait for it...The Metropolitan Railway. The Metropolitan and District lines were always mainline extensions in tunnel. Are you now going to claim Thameslink is a subway too?

The blue line on the map? Existing surface rail lines:

 

[steveintoronto]

New York City is building conventional subway, with two recent extensions.

The important thing here isn't the mode; it's clearly comparing Toronto to 2,000-year-old cities, with 150-year-old rapid transit systems and entirely different density distributions. [sighs]

Well, odd you should mention that. How much older are Chicago, New York and Boston than we are?

As to New York's 7 line extension:
[...]Mayor Michael Bloomberg's December 12, 2006, address to the New York League of Conservation Voters noted that in November 2006, the government began issuing bonds to fund the extension of the 7 subway to Eleventh Avenue and 34th Street.[12] The $2.4 billion extension was funded with New York City funds from municipal Tax Increment Financing (TIF) bond sales that are expected to be repaid with property tax revenues from future developments in areas served by the extension.[13]
[...]
Exactly! Toronto take note!

And the Second Avenue subway?
NYC's brand new subway is the most expensive in the world — that's a problem
The tragedy of the Second Avenue Subway.
Updated by Matthew Yglesias@mattyglesiasmatt@vox.com Jan 1, 2017, 10:00am EST
http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/1/1/14112776/new-york-second-avenue-subway-phase-2

By all means use it as an example, Fitz. NYC will never build another subway, and the Second Ave one will never be finished. New York is now looking at at further connecting the RERs to more stations. Lots on-line. And of course the East Side Access of the LIRR into Grand Central. That's full heavy rail.

And on the surface?


Map of the 2 proposed routes and 6 proposed stations of the Penn Station Access project
Penn Station Access is a public works project proposed by the Metropolitan

 

[TheTigerMaster]

You do realize that the hotel tax has also been nixed by QP, and that Tory remains adamantly against increasing property tax?

City Council has already raised property taxes twice to pay for infrastructure, both times supported by the mayor.

 

[steveintoronto]

City Council has already raised property taxes twice to pay for infrastructure, both times supported by the mayor.

Well, today's TorStar, and Tory begging:
Tory steps up pressure on Wynne for budget billions
Queen’s Park must match federal spending on Toronto transit and housing to build a “stronger, fairer city,” says Tory in letter to councillors, urging them to speak to their MPPs.

"The mayor has called a doubling of gas tax revenues inadequate compensation and demanded provincial Liberals boost help for Toronto.

Wynne’s ministers have fired back with long lists of past spending on the provincial capital plus future commitments including regional electric rail."
https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...up-pressure-on-wynne-for-budget-billions.html

Here's the way forward...*IF* a business case can be made, and that's going to be the big stumbling block:

Pearson airport hub a fitting project for Canada Infrastructure Bank ...
www.theglobeandmail.com › News › Politics
3 hours ago - Outgoing Metrolinx CEO Bruce McCuaig says Pearson airport's ambitious plan to become a transportation megahub is the kind of project that ...
[...continues...]

I'm not able to access the subscription from this computer, I'm sure TorStar and others will have similar copy Monday. Toronto is going to have act like a kid without short pants, and go it alone, on a *business case* like a big boy, and not go running to mommy all the time for money.

Haven't you gotten the hint yet? QP is practising saying "NO". Get used to it. And become accustomed to their emphasizing the RER point. I suspect a huge announcement coming on Metrolinx' future, one that the OntTories will be loathe to criticize. NDP will go livid, but hey...

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Well, odd you should mention that. How much older are Chicago, New York and Boston than we are?

I guess it depends somewhat on how you define age but about 200 years, depending which city you're asking about.

Toronto and Chicago are around the same age, I believe. New York and Boston were both founded in the early 1600s.

So comparing Toronto to Paris is apples and oranges (or pommes et oranges, if you prefer).
Comparing Toronto to Boston and New York is Macintosh apples to Granny smith. Or something.